Essential Kafka & Plato: Tallyho - The Hunt for Virtue; Author's Website
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Beatrice Addressing Dante from the Carriage

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   Nine Dialogues by Plato -
translated from Schleiermacher's
German and constituting the ultimate defense of his thesis
that, if his philosophy is to be properly understood, Plato really should be read in the proper order:

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"I purposefully abstain from saying anything at all regarding the tenets of Plato's philosophy - for it is entirely my intent that this translation of his works should speak for itself and this simply by placing it immediately before the reader - that he, alone in his study, may himself gain an acquaintance of Plato which, even if it's not entirely new, is at least richer than what he may previously have experienced and, thus, this may enable a deeper insight into Plato's spirit and teachings.  Nothing would run so counter to this my intent than making any representations as regards Plato's thought.  He, then, who is as yet unacquainted with Plato's writings, may he place in abeyance and forget about any assumptions and reports of what Plato's philosophy might be.  Whoever, on the other hand, should have already formed an opinion of his own, such a person might take note in his own reflections regarding the interrelationships that come to light in this edition, how greatly his own insights may undergo some catharsis - that, perchance, the ideas and the dialogues may be connected somewhat tighter together, and also that they may gain something in their reach and unity in that Plato's philosophical artistry has gained in precision in this edition over what previously has been offered.  For it is, I think, a sad truth that no philosopher has suffered so greatly by being either misunderstood or by not being understood at all, as has Plato - albeit misunderstanding seems to be rather the rule than the exception when one enters into the domain of philosophy."
[Transl. by Phillip Lundberg -  Platon Werke Band 1.1, Akademie-Verlag, Berlin, 1984: page 7. ]

Schleiermacher's translation of Plato is famous, and is the only translation that is well known
in Germany.  He claims - which is really quite a claim:  that if you do not understand what is behind the ordering of Plato's dialogues then you don't really understand Plato all that well: 
 
"That, in short, whenever the connection of the parts amongst one another and their relationship to the whole is lacking, so too every possibility of right insight into the parts as well as into the whole becomes fundamentally impossible." - Über die Philosophie Platons, quoting Schleiermacher, from my Introduction - Tallyho, page xxx.
 
[Note:  See the Download Page for Schleiermacher's ordering of Plato's dialogues.]

Standing upon the Wall - a l o n e -  'OR' ?

Phillip Lundberg translated these nine dialogues
between the years 1998-2005. 
 
Tallyho ~ The Hunt for Virtue:  
                  Beauty, Truth and Goodness
was published with Authorhouse in March of 2005 - - and, indeed, I am still struggling with the idea of either a 2nd edition or 2nd volume that will include the Statesman (and possibly Symposium) . . .
 
Every translation is an "interpretation" - those who pretend otherwise are simply fooling themselves; the only real issue is how close does the translator stand to the spirit of the work? - which, by the way, is ever more an issue in these times when the Zeitgeist has sunk deeply into materialism, a sinking that was, indeed, foretold in Plato's Statesman:
 

Strng:   But do pay close attention upon this, my history lesson, as if you were still a child… indeed, it has only been a few short years since you were a child.

Yg Soc:  Go right ahead.

Strng:   Such old stories have been with us and they shall continue to exist, there’s so many of them, just like the spectacle of the strife – the quarrel that is said to have arisen between Atreus and Thyestes.  For indeed, you have heard the tale and remember it, what should have occurred during those times?

Yg Soc:  You’d be meaning, perhaps, the portent of the golden lamb?

Strng:    No, not that.  Rather the alteration in the rising and setting of the sun, and all of the other stars – namely, that back then they  [269] used to set where now they rise, and they rose upon the opposite side.  At that time God gave a portent to Atreus and turned them around into their current order.

Yg Soc:   Indeed, there have been stories about this as well.

Strng:    And also about Chronos’ rule – we have heard about this from many sources.

Yg Soc:  Very many, quite.

Strng:   And how – that earlier on mankind was created differently, born out of the earth and not generated [as now] the one from out of the other?

Yg Soc:    That too is one of these legends.

Strng:    Now, all of this as an entirety is based upon the same circumstance, and beyond this there are yet thousands of other matters that are even more wondrous though the great stretch of time has totally erased quite a bit of it and the rest is captured in legends that are scattered all about, each having broken away from all of the rest.  But the circumstance that is their underlying cause, the root of it all, nobody yet has spoken out about it.  But now it has to be divulged for this will propel us onward in our presentation of the king if this tale is told.

 

Yg Soc:  Well, said!  Tell us, then, and don't leave anything out.

Strng:    Then, hear it:

 

This whole in its passage is helped along by God Himself, that He lends His guiding hand and partakes in ‘the waltz’ and, from time to time, He lets go of it again – when the cycle has reached its respective measure.  But, then again, it turns itself about out of its own accord toward the opposite side, just as a living [entity], one endowed with reason, partaking thereof due to Him, He who originally fabricated it.  But this returning is necessary and is due, naturally, to the following cause.

Yg Soc:  What cause would that be?

Strng:  Always being one and the same {einerlei} and correlating in a like manner, this predication befits alone that which is most divine amongst the all, but corporeal nature is not of this sort.  That, now, which we have named heaven and earth, indeed, all of this has been amply bestowed and contains majesty from its creator, all the same it also partakes in body wherefore it’s not possible that it could totally be lacking in experience of alteration.  Still and yet, in accordance with its capacity {Vermögen} it shall always be moved in one direction in a like manner.  For this reason it partakes in revolution {Umwälzung} as this is the smallest deviation from self-movement.  But rotating perpetually is not so easily possible except for that which leads and directs all movement.  But for this latter, it’s not possible that now ‘so’ and then, later on ‘so’ – moving in an opposite direction – this isn’t possible.  In view of all of this one is not allowed to assert of the world that it always rotates on its own, nor may one assert that it is entirely due to God that it turns, particularly as its motion is of two sorts and happens in opposite directions; nor too, somehow, that there would be two gods whose convictions are in opposition and, thus, each spins the world contrariwise to the other – rather,  [270a] what was even just stated above and that which alone remains:  that now the world is led onward by a different divine cause, acquiring {erwerbend} life anew and receiving an immortality prepared for it by the Master Architect; but then, when it is let loose and set upon its own, so it makes its own way to the best of its ability having been left alone by itself in such a condition that it may be possible to wander back, retracing its way through myriads of cycles because, despite the consummate immensity and due to its perfect balance, so it ventures forth turning upon the smallest foot.

Yg Soc:  Well, that’s quite an eye-opener, all that you’ve said so far in your presentation.

Strng:  So – let’s add it all up in that we examine the circumstance that results from what I’ve said along with what was presented as the root cause of all these amazing things.  This, namely, is as follows.

Yg Soc:  What, essentially?

Strng:  Namely – as regards the movement of the whole, that from time to time it swings toward the side toward which we’re now revolving and, from time to time, in the opposite direction.

Yg Soc:  But how, how is this, actually?

Strng:   This alteration has to be taken as the greatest, most complete ‘turning about’ of all events that occur in the heavens.

Yg Soc:  So it seems, indeed.

Strng:  For this reason it’s also to be believed that therewith the greatest alterations arise for us, since we do live upon the earth.

Yg Soc:  That, too, seems quite plausible.

Strng:  But with the collusion of many important and manifold alterations – don’t we know that the nature of ‘the living’ cannot bear this easily?

Yg Soc:   How mightn’t we!

Strng:  The greatest decimations, thus, arise by necessity, as well amongst all of the other animals and, so too, for our human species, and only a few remain.  And then, this small segment of survivors meets up with many other amazing events, matters that are totally new… but the following, this is the greatest of them all and this accompanies the ‘turning about’ of the whole when the direction that heretofore held sway is shifted directly around.

Yg Soc:   Essentially, to what do you refer?

Strng:   Whatever age each living [being] has attained – at first this comes to a standstill and all mortal creatures stop in their aging, no longer looking any older, rather, much more is it so that this turns itself around and they start becoming younger and more delicate.  And the white hair of the aged becomes black once again, the cheeks of those bristling in beards become silky and smooth and brings each and every back to his early bloom; and it’s even so with the bodies of late adolescence, they get softer and become smaller with each passing day and every night until they take on the nature of small children, becoming similar to these both in body and in soul.  But after awhile they shrivel up entirely, disappearing completely.  Yes, in these times even the corpses of those who have suffered a violent death – these experience the entirety of these fortuitous turns so that in rapid strides they are consumed in just a few days.

Yg Soc:  But, essentially how did life arise during this time, o Stranger, and in what manner did it propagate itself from out [271a] of itself?

Strng:  Obviously, o Socrates, in no such a manner did nature propagate itself, not at all, during this period, rather the genealogy that is spoken of in these ancient sagas, that earlier on there would have been an earthborn existence, even such were these, they who returned into existence from out of the earth – and this was still remarked upon by our earliest ancestors, those whose existence touched upon the conclusion of the preceding rotation and who were born at the very edge, at the beginning of our current epoch.  For these are the original source of these testaments regarding primeval history, the sagas that nowadays the great majority unrighteously discard in utter disbelief.  We’re able to see this, I believe, from out of the following.  For then, that the aged go back and return to the nature of children, this is just the flipside of this other matter, that all of those who have died and those lying within the earth, that all of these rise up again from ‘there’ and that they are following this all-pervasive ‘coming about’ that was just mentioned.  Thus, the entirety – all of that which comes to be – shifts around into the reverse direction and, so, in accord with this, necessarily, they have received their name and their clarification accordingly – as being born from out of the earth, namely, as many as, indeed, God hasn’t already promoted, elevating them to some other destiny.

Yg Soc:  That’s obvious:  all of this results from out of your earlier remarks.  Singularly, the life that once existed, as you said, beneath the tyranny of Chronos – was that during the time of the former revolution, or of the current?  For then, the alteration with the sun and all of the stars obviously has to come together with both of these motions.

Strng:  You’ve been following my discourse exceptionally well.  But that about which you’re questioning, namely that everything happens for man from itself – this doesn’t belong at all to the motion that’s currently in effect, the rotation of our current epoch, rather it’s obvious that this, likewise, belonged to the earlier order.  For during those times, firstly, it was the care of God that provided the foundation for the rule over the whole rotation but, just as now, different portions of the world were divided up amongst the ruling deities. And, so too, the living beings were divided up into different species and herds – and, likewise, the divine guidance was split accordingly:  different daemons ruling and providing everything that any given herd would require so that none of them were wild, nor would any species prey upon another or use another for its sustenance; and there were neither wars nor any divisiveness, utterly none at all amongst any of them – just as there are so many other matters that might be mentioned, they’re practically innumerable – all of which belongs together with the foregoing.  But all of that which is extolled as mankind’s paradisiacal pre-existence, this is what underlies all of these stories.  God Himself protected mankind and stood before us – just as now mankind, itself more divine [than the lower orders,] stands over and protects the other living species, those that are less [endowed] than we are.  Beneath His guidance, however, there [272] weren’t any civil constitutions, nor were there any formal legalities having to do with household arrangements – such things as marriage contracts that dictate one’s relation to the women and children – for everyone sprang up from out of the earth and hadn’t any remembrance for anything that had happened earlier on.  Rather, anything of this sort was totally absent, but when it came to edible fruit there was a super-abundance of all kinds from oak trees and all sorts of vegetation, not that any of this was cultivated by man, rather it was all provided to us from the earth herself.  And unclothed and without any shelter mankind grazed almost completely left out in the free, for the climate then was ideal and our resting spots were sufficiently soft since an over-abundance of grass sprung forth everywhere from out of the earth.  Thus, this is how life was underneath the rule of Chronos, o Socrates, just as you’ve heard; but as for what’s going on right “now,” as they say it – underneath Zeus’ reign – with this you’re already quite well acquainted.  Would you be able and would you want to decide between these:  which of the two of them is a more blessed existence?

Yg Soc:  No, not at all.

Strng:   Would you like, then, that I give you an analogy {vergleiche} from a certain vantage.

Yg Soc:  Very much so!  I’d like that ever so much.

Strng:   Thus, when the fledglings of Chronos – since they enjoyed so much leisure time and, what’s more, not only could they converse amongst themselves but, likewise, also with the animals – if, as I say, they made the right use of this by conversing with each other and with the animals in regards to philosophy, investigating into the essential being of each and every, whether each possessed some particular capacity and, so, they perceived something from out of such discourse with the others, something that truly increased their insight, then it’s really quite easy to make the decision about this, namely that those who lived in these former times were a thousand-fold more blessed than those of the present.  But then, if they richly satiated themselves upon food and drink and then would speak to one another as well as to the animals and told stories that would be just like the stories that we hear so often about them, so too, at least in my erstwhile opinion, so too this matter is very easily decided...  But really, let’s just leave this be until someone comes who informs us about all of this in a well-grounded manner:  toward which of the two sides the pleasure of any given species tended in relation to knowledge and what use they made of speech.  But why it is that we’ve stirred things up with our historiography, this is what needs to be clarified now so that we may be enabled to proceed onward to what follows.  Namely, as all of this reached its fulfillment in the time allotted and as a “turning about” became necessary – since, then too, the species that arise from out of the earth had been exhausted through all of the incorporations through which they passed and, insofar as this had been predetermined, each had left ‘his’ seeds behind for the earth – so, accordingly, the pilot of the whole released his grip upon the rudder and drew himself back into his waiting station.  But now the world was moved backwards by destiny, as well as by her inborn desire.  Then all of the deities ruling over their portions beneath the Supreme Spirit – as they all took notice of what had happened – they likewise released their portions of the world from their oversight and care.  But now the earth in its reversal, as there came a mixing of the opposites, the beginning with the end, and in its swinging around and setting off upon a new course, all [273a] of this aroused within her major  eruptions and the greatest quakings, and there were yet other calamities that befell all of the types of living beings.  As now, after the passage of a sufficient amount of time, in part the tumult and confusion abated as these upheavals subsided and a period of stillness ensued and, in part too as the earth found her natural balance in having taken a new course which now had been set, one that had been prepared and was well ordered – so the earth came to herself and exercised her oversight and powers, herself over herself and upon everything within herself in that the teachings of the Master Architect and Father, these were brought into remembrance to the extent possible.  Now, at the beginning this was done with greater precision, but later on with ever increasing laxity.  And the guilt for this is to be attributed to the corporeal within this mixture that was pulled along with her and mixed up within the earth’s nature since she was afflicted with such great disorder before reaching the ordered state that now she has attained.  For it is from Him, He who righted the earth and set her upon her present “tack” {eingerichtet} – it is from Him that she possesses everything of beauty,[1] but then everything that is repugnant and all that isn’t right that happens beneath the heavens, all of this has its source within the earth from her [mixed] constitution, and this streams into her, introducing such an element into all that lives within.  For as long as she nourishes the living – those who have taken up residence within the earth beneath the supervision of the Navigator – so she brings forth within them only a little of the malefic, but also a great deal of that which is good.  But then, as she becomes separated from the former, so at first, in the early stages of her being set free she still accomplishes everything in a majestic manner, but then ever further the times move forward and ever more that forgetfulness sneaks in and begins taking hold within, so much the greater does this condition of the old confusion start to dominate, this which reaches its full peak at the end of time so that then there will only be a small amount of good along with a very great portion of that which is contrary and, thus, the former mix, that which is composed of this, such finds itself in danger of [utter] corruption, the earth herself and everything within her.  Wherefore then the God, He who set our course and furnished the earth, when He catches sight of the dire straits into which she has entered, and out of his anxious concern that she not be dashed into bits, irretrievably shattered and totally consumed having sunk into a groundless spot, the unfathomable depths of dissimilarity, so He places himself once again at the rudder and pivoting everything back around through His own circumgyration and, thus, once more establishing order and making everything better, so it is that He places the earth upon an eternal, ever youthful footing.  Now, all of this is just the finale to all of that about which we were speaking, but still, this shall serve us in our presentation of the king – we’ll find it to be sufficient if we simply attend to what was said earlier on.  Namely, just as soon as the world turned herself onto her present tack of becoming, so at first all aging came to a standstill, and then in opposition to all of the foregoing something new was introduced, to wit:  the ever smaller living beings that were dwindling down and about to disappear, these began to grow again, and that which was new, rising up out of the earth but already in a grey and aged condition, these turned right back around going back into their graves and died once more.  And everything else as well, all of the other was transformed and everything imitated the condition of the whole, following it.  And so too was the case with [274a] propagation, birthing and taking on sustenance – all of this followed, by necessity, in imitation of the whole.  For now it wasn’t allowable that the living would be built up and formed from other elements that were taken from out of the earth, rather just so as the world took it upon herself and ruled herself, leading herself and gravitating into her orbit, so too – in as much as this was possible – so too her parts acted just the same, forming themselves from out of themselves, being born and feeding themselves having taken on this arrangement on cue from the earth.  And now we’ve reached even that toward which this entire speech was directed.  From all of the other animals, namely, it would be tedious and a long, drawn out story – whither [the source of] each, and why the various relationships and metamorphoses – but then, in regard to mankind, all of this is grasped in short order and belongs to the crux of the matter.  For as we were released from the oversight and care of the daemons who ruled and guarded over us, so right off we experienced all sorts of suffering from the other animals as, then, the majority of these had become totally wild and were of a crass nature, but we ourselves were weak and defenseless and, thus, in the early times we were completely helpless and lacking in all technical expertise {kunstlos} since the food supply that heretofore, simply, had been given to us, now it was gone and, as far as the means of acquiring such on our own, well, we didn’t have a clue because, there never having been any need, this hadn’t been necessary.  Now, all of this brought us into a dire predicament.  Wherefore, then, as the ancient sagas tell us:  the extolled gifts were given to us from the gods along with the necessary doctrine and training – fire, namely, from Prometheus; and the arts from Hephaestus and his retinue; and then again, sowing seeds and the arts of nurture, these were bestowed upon us by others; and everything that is entailed as the accoutrements of human existence has come to be for us through all of this because, namely – just as I was saying – the god’s custody over mankind had ceased and humanity now had to direct its own affairs, humans bearing all of the care for this themselves, just like the whole world which, in whatever cycle of time it may be, we always imitate and follow after her, and it’s even for this very reason that now ‘so’ and at another time in some different manner:  thus we live and come-to-be.  And herewith my historiography has reached its end.  But we want to make use of this story in that we make ourselves and that we see how greatly our earlier speech has failed us in its presentation of the ruling authority, the lord and statesman.

                                                                                  << Statesman 268d-275a>>



[1] Cf:  Phaedrus  250de (Tallyho ~ p. 38).

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