Mostly Introductory

April 23, 1989

Host: Barbara Thompson ..................................... Invited Guest: Karl Puechl

Barbara: Good Morning. I'm glad you could join us. I think you're going to find this next half hour especially interesting because we're going to be learning abou the Unitarian-Universalist Fellowship, a religion that's been around for a good number of years I've been advised, but many of us have not been aware of it even though I'm told several of our early presidents were Unitarians, namely, John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Millard Fillmore and William Howaard Taft. But enough of heresay. Right now I want to introduce you to our guest for today, the President of the Unitarian-Universalist Fellowship here in Hemet and ask him to tell us more about the background and history of this denomination. Welcome to the seekers forum, Mr. Karl Puechl.

Karl: Thank you, Barbara. I'm glad to be here to represent the local Unitarian Universalist Fellowship. I should explain that in UU terminology, a Church has a minister while a Fellowship is a congregation that does its own thing without ministerial guidance or constraint. The congregation here in the Valley is a true Fellowship.

Barbara: And would you tell us a little more now about your Unitarian-Universalist Fellowship. I found what you gave me to be very interesting. Perhaps you could give us a brief summary of that now?

Karl: Our Fellowship here in Hemet was founded in 1964, but our roots go far back. Let me give some historical background. To find the roots of our religion we must go back, at least, to the prophets of ancient Israel. The Christian origins of our movement are anchored in the moral teachings of Jesus, as exemplified in the beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount. Early Christianity was neither Trinitarian nor Unitarian. The interpretation of Jesus as a great good man instead of a god was supported within Christianity itself. Early in the fourth century A.D., Arius, a Christian presbyter, initiated the famous Arian controversy by stressing the human attributes of Jesus. His simple doctrine never died out in Christian circles and for centuries had its secret adherents. During the Protestant Reformation, Michael Servetus took up the battle and declared: "Your Trinity is a product of subtlety and madness. The Gospel knows nothing of it. ... God is one and indivisible": Statements for which he was burned at the stake by order of John Calvin, Protestant "Pope" and dictator of Geneva. The Unitarian movement, insisting on the oneness of God became a powerful influence in Poland at the end of the sixteenth century under the leadership of Faustus Socinus, and then spread to England in the seventeenth century and took root in America in the eighteenth. Also about this time, a few isolated religious leaders in England and America began to preach the doctrine that it was unthinkable for a loving God to damn any person everlastingly to hell. One of these preachers, John Murray, was excommunicated from Methodism in 1760, and this helped found the Universalist Church soon thereafter. In 1825, the Unitarians broke away from the Congregationalists and officially established their own organization. From the beginning, the stronghold of American Unitarians was in New England where William Ellery Channing, Theodore Parker and Ralph Waldo Emerson were their acknowledged leaders, while Universalism flourished primarily in the mid-west. After years of discussion, total consolidation of the two faiths was completed in 1961.

Barbara: Thanks very much. That good background helps a lot, I believe, as we move in now to our four basic questions --- our standard set as I like to call them, and I like to remind our listeners at this time that as I ask these questions or ask for clarification of something you have said, I am representing the "seeker" --- always---searching for information and understanding --- not for an argument. so, with that, let's have our first basic question. What do those of the Unitarian Universalist Fellowship believe the nature of God to be? For example, can you define the UU belief so that I might understand what kind of relationship I would be accepting if I were to join your faith?

Karl: Frankly, when it comes to belief, god, and faith, I can't speak for Unitarian Universalists as a whole. For example, we just don't consider it important whether someone believes in a god or not. Probably, the majority of us would be comfortable in being called "agnostics" meaning that we are willing to admit that we don't know whether something or someone is ordering the universe or not. However, some of us feel comfortable with a god concept and others, like myself, are content to call themselves "atheists". One might say that we are more concerned about how someone arrived at his or her beliefs than the specifics of the beliefs.

To be somewhat more specific, in preparation for this dialogue I wrote down a few things that UU's consider to be important. Anyone could call himself a Unitarian Universalist and would feel at home in our Fellowship if he or she:

1. Encourages the free-flow of ideas.

2. Is willing to listen to and evaluate all ideas.

3. Evaluates ideas or options without any preconditions on the scope

or depth of the evaluation.

4. Accepts the fact that his or here current views are subject to revision as society evolves.

5. Recognizes that his or her current views and conclusions may even now be in error because of a great number of possible reasons including childhood conditioning, psychological inhibitions, lack of all the facts, etc.

6. Recognizes that each human being is a distinct individual and that what appears to be good for him or her is not necessarily good for someone else.

In response to this kind of description of a Unitarian Universalist, you might say: "Yes, I understand this, but what does this have to do with religion?" Personally, I think this kind of description addresses religion in the deepest possible way because one's attitude towards these things will determine how one will tackle life: its successes, its failures; its problems; and most importantly, from a psychological standpoint, its unpredictability.

We don't have time to get into a theological discussion but, basically, religion has come about and has remained popular because man has deep-seated psychological fears, and the associated conditioning has been such that man has trouble accepting his mortality; has trouble accepting his insignificance in the universe; and has trouble interacting with his fellow man. Christianity addresses the first two troublesome aspects of man's existence by postulating a "hereafter" and by saying that "man has been made in the image of god". If a Christian truly accepts these beliefs without any doubts, he or she is a true believer and can then concentrate upon solving the third troublesome aspect of man's existence which is getting along with his fellow man; and this is also addressed by Christianity through the Golden Rule. Most Unitarian Universalists have less trouble with these first two aspects; they can, rationally, accept mortality and insignificance without the need for postulating the supernatural; hence, they can, almost exclusively, concentrate on getting along with their fellow men, this makes Unitarian Universalism a religion whose primary concern is ethics or humanism.

Barbara: Are there other faiths with whom those of your faith could meet--on a regular basis--and be relatively comfortable?

Karl: Yes, there are, but to some extent it would depend upon the nature of the interaction. Generally, we would feel comfortable with Reformed Jews, Quakers, Ethical Culture Society members, Humanists, liberal Congregationalists, and members of some of the Eastern religions. If you could do away with some of the symbolism and trappings, we might also feel comfortable with Roman Catholics and Conservative Jews. This latter statement might be a surprise to many people who consider Unitarian Universalists to be "liberal" while they consider Roman Catholics and Conservative Jews to be "conservative". My statement has validity because of what I said before. Most Catholics and Jews accept the supernaturalities of their faith and concentrate on the ethics of the here-and-now which gives them and Unitarian Universalists a great deal of commonality. To give an example, members of the Unitarian Universalist Service Committee work closely with Roman Catholic priests in Central America to alleviate the miseries associated with the inane conflicts in that region.

Barbara:What do you consider to be the unique quality or position of Unitarian Universalism that causes it to be separate from the others with similar beliefs?

Karl: I believe that Unitarian Universalists are more willing to listen to, to debate, and to respect the beliefs of others. I like to think that we provide a forum for interchange of ideas where there is complete freedom to express opinions. Basically, this comes about because we cherish our doubts more than we cherish any of our beliefs. To illustrate this point, I'd like to give a reading from a little booklet that we sometimes use during our Sunday service. The title of this reading is "Cherish Your Doubts" by Robert T. Weston, a Unitarian Universalist minister.

"Cherish your doubts, for doubt is the attendant of truth.

Doubt is the key to the door of knowledge; it is the servant of discovery.

A belief which may not be questioned binds us to error, for there is incompleteness and imperfection in every belief.

Doubt is the touchstone of truth; it is an acid which eats away the false.

Let no one fear for the truth, that doubt may consume it; for doubt is a testing of belief.

The truth stands boldly and unafraid; it is not shaken by the testing:

For truth, if it be truth, arises from each testing stronger, more secure.

Those who would silence doubt are filled with fear; their houses are built on shifting sands.

But those who fear not doubt, and know its use, are founded on a rock.

They shall walk in the light of growing knowledge; the work of their hands shall endure.

Therefore let us not fear doubt, but let us rejoice in its help:

It is to the wise as a staff to the blind; doubt is the attendant of truth."

Barbara: What do you believe to be the most important problem your denomination faces today, right now?

Karl: This is rather simple to answer because we always have the same problem--the problem of membership. Our membership has always been a small percentage of the population because it is difficult to be a Unitarian Universalist--we don't have any answers--we are seekers--and to be comfortable without answers requires self-reliance which is always in short supply. Also, since we cherish our doubts at least as much as our beliefs, we don't proselytize. If you also feel that you don't have all the answers, you will be welcome into Unitarian Universalism, but we will never say that you should join us, that it is better to join us than some other religion, or that you will derive any particular benefit if you do join us. All we can promise is comradeship with fellow "seekers".

Barbara: And, with that, we have completed our standard set of the four basic question. In a minute we'll go on to our listerners' questions. For those of you who may not be familiar as yet with our forum format, the four basic questions are the same each week for each of our guests. They have a copy of those questions well in advance so that, as they respond, we can be confident they-ve been able to give their response some thoughtful consideration. Of course, because they are basic questions, most of our guest are very much at home with them. Meanwhile, we, as the seekers of information, are privileged to learn, so to speak, first hand, about the specific faith, rather than by hearsay from sources which might no be as well informed. So far, I think we have done well with this format, it's been even more informative and educational than I expected in many respects. And consider the scope of faiths we've been able to learn aabout so far. Today, of course, the Universalist-Unitarian Fellowship --- in past weeks, the Presbyterian and Trinity Lutheran churches, Buddhists with the Zen Center, Dutch Reformed Church, Baha-I Faith, Unity Church of Religious Science, Christian church---and we still have a number of faiths or denominations who have indicated an interest in participating. I hope you canbe with us for each and every one. If not, however, and you would like to have a cassette tape of one or more of the interviews, Frank will tell lyou at the close of the program how you can get them. And --- please ---let me know if you have any questions you'd like me to ask. We'll be moving into our second round of interviews before too much longer and I'm planning, as of now, to have those interviews composed almost entirely of your questions so let me hear from you. After this introduction into the next phase of our interview, I find that our time is up. This is when I always wish the clock could be made to stop time. We're going to have to close off for now Thanks very much, Mr. Puechl, for being with us today and answering our questions. I know I've learned a lot and I'm sure our listeners have too. We'll look forward to having time for listeners' questions for you in our next round of interviews.