From interview with Robert Anton Wilson:

DARE
Are there any existing political systems you admire?

WILSON
Scandinavian socialism. I found the Scandinavians to be about the most admirable people in Europe. clean streets, a low crime rate, a general air of high civilization - luxuries for all and a total absence of slums, poverty, and ugliness. They seem very happy and productive, with one of the most way out futurist movements in the world. They're the California of Europe.
I hate to sound like a Marxist, which I'm not, but the reason you haven't heard about Scandinavian Socialism is because the media of this country is controlled by rich people who are scared shitless of socialism. They want Americans to think there's only one type of socialism, Soviet Communism, which is the kind of place where dissident scientists get thrown in lunatic asylums, all of which is true. Americans are paranoid about Russians but Scandinavians regard them with amusement; they're those backwards people who think that you can only have socialism by putting all the poets and painters in jail. The Scandinavians reward their poets and they don't put anyone in jail for dissident political opinions.

DARE
Aren't you scared of getting in trouble, of finally saying the one thing you shouldn't have said?

WILSON
We're all living in a world in which one cannot apply one's highest ideals without getting into a lot of trouble. I've gotten in trouble, but I haven't gone to jail, which shows I may have more common sense than Tim Leary. I certainly don't claim to be more intelligent than him. He's the most intelligent human being I've ever encountered.

DARE
Do you share his conclusions about LSD?

WILSON
LSD breaks up habitual circuits of the brain. It opens new circuits, breaks down old circuits, and there's no evidence whatsoever that it destroys brain cells. LSD is very much a metaprogramming device, it changes the basic programs, that's why it's dangerous. It creates acute paranoid states in bureaucrats who've never used it.
To get the best out of it needs a scientific or religious approach, one or the other. People who are just tripping for the fun of it are more likely to imprint a whole new reality tunnel or personality on themselves that they weren't looking for. If you're going to do LSD, you should decide the changes you're aiming at and structure the trip to lead to that kind of change.
There's no doubt that you can change every part of your personality with LSD, that's why Leary calls it a reimprinting drug. It changes basic imprints which are much more rigid than conditioning. There's no doubt that I am a different person than I am before I took it.
I was a statistical materialist before I started experimenting with LSD, that is I didn't believe the laws of the universe were absolutely deterministic because I knew enough quantum mechanics to know that it broke them down. But I was still a statistical materialist, everything could be explained by the accidental permutations of little hunks of energy that solidify into matter. I was perfectly satisfied with that explanation of the universe, and I never realized that I was as dogmatic about it as any Catholic was about their faith. After LSD impacted on me, I became a total agnostic, and I'm not dogmatic about anything any more. I know that every system I make up is my own brain making up a system. None of the systems is big enough to include the whole universe, so all of my beliefs are only relatively true. Some are undoubtedly wrong because I'm not that brilliant that I never make a mistake.
There are a lot of people who don't realize how conceited they are. By asserting with such certitude the things they believe in, they don't realize that they're saying "I'm the smartest person in the world, I can answer all the questions." People like Carl Sagan. I just don't know how he can be so sure of everything when, by and large, the more intelligent you get, the more you realize you can't be sure of anything.

DARE
What is the next stage in evolution?

WILSON
The model I use is adapted from Leary. The oral-bio-survival circuit is what the amoebas operate on - taste everything. Babies operate on that too. That's the circuit we go back to whenever we're in danger, and depending on what we imprinted there, we will either attack or run away.
Then there's Freud's anal circuit, which has to do with claiming territory and status within it. That's when we go through the mammalian rituals concerning who runs the family, outsmarting our brothers and sisters and trying to run the whole show, imprinting our domination and submission reflexes. It's why people can hold jobs; their boss becomes a father substitute and they attach all their reflexes to him.
Next there's the rational circuit in which we do our abstract reasoning with words and mathematics, and the sociosexual circuit where we imprint the pattern of how we relate to people; with what degree of amity or sexuality. Everybody has a different imprint, and society has only one general set of rules, so everybody is a heretic as far as that circuit is concerned. Those four circuits are the natural child, the adoptive child, the adult, and the parent in Berne's system.
Beyond that is the neurosomatic circuit, where, through yoga or drugs or body work like Rolfing, one gimmick or another, you are able to turn on to your own body in a new way, and instead of just reacting to the conditioned and imprinted programs on the first four circuits, you are able to relax and go with the flow and enjoy life.
The sixth circuit is the neurogenetic circuit, which has to do with morpho-genetic resonances, coming in contact with the experience and religious symbols of your ancestors, learning that they've been controlling you below the level of consciousness all your life. This is what Shamanism traditionally deals with. Jungian psychology was the first attempt to deal with it scientifically, now we've got dozens of others trying to bring people into harmony with archetypes of the collective unconscious or genetic heritage.
The next is the metaprogramming circuit, which is learning how the brain can work on the brain, how you can imprint different identities and reality tunnels as you go along. Before you get to that circuit, you have no idea what true freedom really is, you're being manipulated all the time whether you know it or not. It's the circuit where you develop true choice.

DARE
How do you get there?

WILSON
If you do a lot of work on the 5th and 6th circuits, the 7th tends to click on. First you get a lot of synchronicities, meaningful coincidences, accidental reinforcement from your environment, like someone coming by to loan you a book that's exactly the one you were looking for. Jung found that his patient's dreams had more and more symbols out of Greek and Egyptian and Hindu mythology as they progressed into that circuit, even without studying them consciously. They pulled them out of the collective unconscious, which I think is actually the morphogenetic field.
Above that there's the non-local quantum circuit, which is the circuit in which we get true out of body experiences, cosmic identification with the whole of existence.
We're learning so much about the latter four circuits, which Leary calls the extraterrestrial circuits, that we're moving into a new stage of evolution. More people are on the fifth circuit than ever before in history, and there are growing sixth and seventh circuit minorities. It's not an accident. We're changing just as we have to change. These circuits were there, ready to be used, when we got to this point in evolution. Earlier, mankind could just coast along on the first four circuits, and only visionaries and mystics and poets ever turned on the higher circuits. Now everyone does it.

DARE
How to you teach people to turn on their higher circuits?

WILSON
You've got to teach with humor to make the pill palatable. Besides, humor is the essence of realizing our true situation in space and time. We are these tiny fallible beings crawling around on a relatively small planet, and anybody who pontificates dogmatically about anything is giving evidence that they are an idiot, even if you agree with them. They shouldn't sound that certain. We think we're so damn smart and we know so fucking little.


new poems:



"Dead Pacifists"



must we be nice

to the parasites

and the virus only doing it's job?

my soul, they allow me to keep

but my life they wish to rob







"How We Forget"



The length of a dawning

of linear time

Shall bounce back the breath

of a yawning divine

Rivers of words, blurring

elongated, wash up abrupt

on the beach of consiousness

As I drift inbetween worlds

Madness winks from a neighboring nook

Mi largo perdido amigo

The familiar, fetal-shaped brain groove

Snuggled, warm, hidden but for dreams

Sleep is sacred

How soon we forget

The power of belief

Imagination's holes

In reality's net







"Tea 'n Turkey"



manic thinking

caffeine's masterplan

settle down

tryptophan



carbon dating

aiding man

history

grains of sand







"Pleading The Fifth (Dimension)"



Outside of time

A true poet gives no pause

To accumulate the disease

Of mortality



The mind will still move

Yet the pen will not scribble

No ripple

Will reach those inside

From Robert Anton Wilson's Ishtar Rising or, Why the Goddess Went to Hell and What to Expect Now That She's Returning:

"Cary Grant was once told, "Every time I see you on the screen, I think, 'I wish I was Cary Grant.'" He replied, "That's just what I think!"

I've been repeating that story ever since I first heard it, and it never fails to amuse audiences, all of whom seem to understand it immediately. Everybody groks that Archie Leach, the poor boy from Liverpool who became "Cary Grant" never fully believed in "Cary Grant," since Cary was, after all, his own invention. On the other hand, here's a similar story, which I also like to tell, that produces very mixed reactions, with some people laughing and others looking puzzled or slightly offended.

An art dealer once went to Pablo Picasso and said, "I have a bunch of 'Picasso' canvasses that I was thinking of buying. Would you look them over and tell me which are real and which are forgeries?" Picasso obligingly began sorting the paintings into two piles. Then, as the Great Man added one particular picture to the fake pile, the dealer cried, "Wait a minute, Pablo. That's no forgery. I was visiting you the weekend you painted it." Picasso replied imperturbably, "No matter. I can fake a Picasso as well as any thief in Europe."

Personally, I find this story not only amusing but profoundly disturbing. It has caused me to think, every time I finish a piece of writing, "Is this a real Robert Anton Wilson, or did I just fake a Robert Anton Wilson?" Sometimes, especially with a long novel, I find it impossible to convince myself that I know the answer. After all, as Nietzche said, "there are no facts, only interpretations"...... "

a song I wrote (long before I read the above):

"What's That Something Else?"

Everything is an interpretation of something else
Everything is an interpretation of something else
Everything is an interpretation of something else
Everything is an interpretation of something else

But what's that something else?
But what's that something else?
But what's that something else?
But what's that something else?

And how can I feel it?
Without becoming it?
And what's that something else?
Where's that something else?
Is it hiddin in the sky or ground?
Or is it inside ourselves?

Everything is an interpretation of something else
But what's that something else?

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