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John Elle's Transmission Swap Info
John Elle sent me the information below and it has been hosted on this website with his permission.
To whomit may concern
So far this document is a collection of information that I used to install the T-5 in my Donohue and includes information that I have picked since then.
I also have included some editorial opinion on my part and some theory, so if you have a question or disagree, either use a little grain of salt or contact me for further information.
This information is as accurate as I can make it and I periodically update and verify the information that I have. As this conversion is not necessarily the best for every one please read the information carefully to see if this is a conversion that you want to do.
Other options that may be available are:
Advance Adapters makes the adapters and bell housings. I do not have any data as what they can do at this time.
Ron Waters ( http://www.ClassicOne.com or wsc@ClassicOne.com) has announced a SFI approved scatter shield made to do just this same swap, using GM style transmissions. The advantage is the availability, the disadvantage is they are not as strong as the Mustang T5.
You can also use a Richmond transmission for a Ford Mustang but you must use a '75 - '79 AMC 150-T bell housing/clutch/etc. There is no adapter required. The 150-T is a Ford 3-spd, under another name.
A Tremec for a Ford Mustang is also an option, but once again for this application you will also need a ‘75-’79 150 T bell housing/Clutch/etc/
Or
The following people market a Tremec for AMC applications:
Fortes Parts, specializing in transmission and related parts. Official Ford and Mopar parts distributor.
MIKE@FORTESPARTS.COM
Our New Address: 376 Cambridge
Street Burlington MA 01803 phone (781) 273-9900 fax (781) 273-9955
We now carry Tremec for Small Block and
Big Block Mopar, AMC and
Big Block Ford. Call us at (781) 273-9900 for more details.
The Mustang 5 spd works well in the various AMC applications both (second generation) V-8 and ‘72 and later -6-’s. The AMC SR-4, T-4 and T-5 transmissions were sourced from Ford and using parts from these AMC applications will let you fit a Mustang T5 into almost any AMC automobile using a combination of AMC and Ford parts with a minimum of fabrication.
This discussion refers only to the AMC -6- and V-8 cars. Unless specified otherwise, all references to AMC parts from donor cars will be the -6- cylinder or V-8 cars. In some cases Eagle parts can be used for the conversion as the drive train back to the transmission is identical to the 2WD cars, however this document does not cover any possibility of installing a Mustang T5 transmission in any 4WD cars, whether they be Jeeps or Eagles.
Parts from an AMC -4-cylinder car, unless specifically specified are not ‘bolt on’ adaptable for this conversion.
Power handling capability.
As a used transmission it is most current standard transmission available that will handle the power of the average AMC engine, with fair reliability.
The transmission is rated at 325 ft. lbs.. A non-V-8 Ford T-5 at 305 ft. lbs. and a Tremec at 400 ft.lbs. which is about what a T-10 is rated at. These transmissions were used in 1985 through 1993 in 5.0 Mustangs only.In '94 they lengthened the input shaft so these transmission will not bolt in directly.
So far the availability of these transmissions used, is reasonable.
Ways to increase the power handling capability of this transmission will be discussed in a different location.
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Installation Instructions.
This section is written based on my installation in a 1970 AMC Donohue Javelin 390 originally .equipped with a factory T-10 and a 3.54:1 limited slip rear axle. The similarity between the 1968 through 1974 Javelins and AMX’s will allow me to generalize.
Other applications be they V-8 or I-6 will be comparable. The differences will be the length and width of the car and the options that are available for the rear transmission mount location
Parts required.
Flywheel.
If you are starting with an automatic transmission equipped car you will need a Flywheel to replace the flex plate, a pressure plate and a clutch disc that has the correct spines on it to match the input shaft of the Mustang T5.
As I started with a 4 speed equipped car the flywheel was not an issue and as it turned out the clutch disc was a match to the input spines of the Mustang T5. This may not be true in all cases so make sure that you verify the clutch disc compatibility. One which will work is :324 0549 Clutch disc, 101/16 diameter, 10 spine O.D. to match your existing pressure plate
Some part numbers are:
Flywheel
Note-AMC engines are externally balanced. The fly wheel MUST be the correct match for the displacement of the engine.
70/71 360 3/4spd manual,319 6129
72/73 304/360 manual 321 2653
Clutch disc
clutch 10 1\16 " diameter,10 spine O.D. verify match to pressure plate. AMC P/N 324 0549.
Pressure Plate
This should compatible with the fly wheel and clutch disc. I used all stock parts that came on my 390. Equivalent stock or aftermarket is your option.
Bell housing.
(p/n 323 7585)
The donor car for this will be a 1977 and up 304 V-8 2bbl or 258 -6- passenger cars that used the SR4 or T4 transmission. These can be found on the 1977 Hornet AMX , the 1978 Concord AMX, the 1979 Spirit AMX and GT’s and V-8 equipped Pacers. This engine/transmission combination may have been available in other models of Hornets and Concords in those years too.
The bell housing bolt pattern was changed on the -6- cylinder engine in 1972 to match the V-8 bell housing bolt pattern so an SR-4 transmission may be found on an AMC car earlier than 1977 with a -6- cylinder engine, but certainly was offered on the Hornet, Concord, Spirit and Pacer up to the end of production. By that time they may have had a T-4 or T-5 in them. You will also find the bell housing on Eagle cars up until the end of production, however the Eagle cars used a hydraulic clutch. More will be said on that later. The Eagle bell housing it’s self though along with the throw out arm and bearing can be used with a mechanical clutch mechanism as applied to AMC 2 wheel drive cars.
In addition you may also use a bell housing from a Jeep up along with it’s throw out arm and throw out bearing. I have been able to confirm the bell housing to be used is on Jeeps using the SR-4, (1980/81) T-4 and T-5 (1982/1983). Jeep Part number 322-9128 and 323-6287 for the respective bell housing and Jeep part number 536-1610 for the Throw Out Arm and Jeep part number 53610 for the Throw Out Bearing. They may have been used in later years however I can not confirm the exact year. It does appear though that it was used up through 1986.
Another bell housing that you may find, but are not commonly seen are multiple application bell housings. Do not overlook the possibility of locating one.
One such bell housing is the one used for 150T, SR4 T4-T5 and T18. There will be 3 holes common to the 150T and a 4th hole located about 3” below the upper passenger side hole for the Jeep T18.
Throw out arm and bearing.
Make sure that when you obtain the bell housing you also obtain the throw out arm and throw out bearing that goes with the bell housing. A throw out bearing part number: 323 7553.
If your car is already equipped with a standard shift transmission there will be no further clutch related problems. All AMC clutch linkages will be compatible with the new bell housing and throw out arm.
If you are converting from an automatic transmission clutch linkages will become a problem. I once helped a list member convert from a 727 in an AMC powered Bricklen to a Mustang 5 speed.
If you are able to find a donor car like the one you are converting, clutch linkage and pedal linkage will not be an issue as you can do a complete transfer of parts. Some possible solutions are listed below.
On Javelin and AMX’s, all of the clutch linkages from one will bolt onto the other from 1968-1974. There was a design change in 1970 so the individual pieces may not intermix, but he whole linkage can be swapped in. This would include the pedals, the linkages, the ‘Z’ Bar and the adjustable linkage that goes from the ‘Z’ bar to the throw out arm.
Group 5.168-1 BELLCRANK, Clutch Release Idler Outer (aka 'Z-bar')
Part number for '76 Matador Coupe: 322-4996
Interchange: '75-'76 Matador (all body styles)
Part number for '74 Matador Coupe: 321-1687
Interchange: '71 Matador (w/V8); '71 Javelin (w/V8); '72-'74 Matador;
'72-'74 Javelin; '72 Ambassador
Group 5.135-1 PEDAL, Clutch
Part number for '76 Matador Coupe: 322-5085
Interchange: '75-'76 Matador Coupe; '75-'76 Matador 4-door
Part number for '74 Matador Coupe: 321-2243
Interchange: '71-'74 Matador; '71-'74 Javelin; '71-'72 Ambassador
Group 5.160-1 ROD, Bell crank to Clutch Pedal
Part number for '76 Matador Coupe: 322-5081
Interchange: '75-'76 Matador (all body styles)
Part number for '74 Matador Coupe: 322-0295
Interchange: None Listed
It has been reported that the pedal linkage and the Z bar for a 71 Matador are the same as a 70 AMX.
A Hornet pedal assembly will bolt in the a Javelin/AMX but the pedals are too long, they will hit the floor boards and have to be shortened.
Alternative Clutch solutions
There will be times when it will be difficult to find bolt in clutch linkage that matches your AMC car. The Javelins interchange with each other and for the most part Gremlins, Hornets, Concords and Spirits will also. However I am not sure about total interchangeability between Amboats, Matadors and the like.
An alternative to using to using the mechanical linkage from a donor car of the same year or model, or a comparable substitute would be to use a Hydraulic Clutch. Donor cars that would offer parts with the best chance of compatibility would be -6- cylinder Eagle standard shift cars.
AMC -4- cylinder cars in the same vintage have hydraulic clutches also however as the engines used in these are not AMC engines, or were originally set up for 4 wheel drive, but purchased from alternative sources such as Pontiac, Buick and Audi the parts will not be bolt on compatible with the ‘6’ or -8- cylinder cars. People have used these parts but have had to deal with making adapter plates
The EAGLE bell housing has a hydraulic slave cylinder bolted to it, with a rod connecting to the clutch fork. It is held onto the bell housing with two bolts, in the same location as the inner z bar pivot. It looks like AMC designed the hydraulic system to work with the same bell housing as the mechanical system. Slave cylinders and repair kits are still available. The .
Slave cylinder: Wagner F103458, still available but not cheap.
Hydraulic Clutch Installation notes
The master cylinder (for the clutch) mounts between the inner wheel well and a fold of metal about 3 in from it. (note, on this car it was originally a 150 T three speed car). The pedals used are the original ones. A point was located where the post that actuates the master should be on the pedal. A hole was drilled and tapped for a 3/8 bolt in it to fasten the post.
The following information was supplied by "Matt Kievit" <imjeepman@eudoramail.com>
Actually, any car with a clutch petal is easy to make into hydraulic. All you have to do is get under the dash and see where the point on the pedal that basically goes in and out, with the LEAST amount of up/down travel, and drill a hole roughly 3/4 to the side (outside) and bolt up a master cylinder. Then either weld a bolt or drill through the pedal with it 1/3 of the way down on the center line of the hole and install a 7/16" bolt with 2 nuts.
| |
|=|O#O==
| |
Where the Os are nuts and the # is the master
cylinder rod. Assuming the pedal is about 3/8" thick
and the nut is about 3/8" thick = 3/4".
If you have an I.D. tag on your transmission, it can be identified at the folowing web site:
http://www.5speeds.com/
Some examples are given below.
1352-219 Factory 94 Mustang 5.0
300 3.35 1.99 1.33 1.00 0.68 3.15 8 7.85 0.668
1352-220 Factory 94 Mustang 3.8
265 3.35 1.93 1.29 1.00 0.73 3.15 7 7.85 0.668
Input Bearing Retainer.
This is the funnel shaped part that covers part of the input shaft on the front of the transmission and holds the front bearing in place. The outside diameter of the one supplied with the Mustang T-5 is too large for the hole on the AMC Bell Housing.
You have two choices, put the Ford part in a lathe and bring it down the required diameter, remove .060" ( the stronger of the two choices and remember to measure first so you do not take off the wrong amount) or obtain the AMC part from a SR-4, T-4/5 used from 1977 and up and bolt it on the Ford Transmission, (that is what I did). Part number 813 4013)
The hole in the floor and rubber boot.
The transmission is a top loader, the shift linkage etc., will come real close to if not through the floor, depending on the car. The hole will be rather large, in order to clear the top loader mounting points and it will be centered on the tunnel just in front of the front seat. I used the Mustang boot and hold down clamp obtained from the donor Mustang. It was big enough to get the job done, and came with the transmission, (read free).
Rear Transmission Mount.
RPM 9106-63-80 Ford/Mercury rubber mount can be used to bolt to the transmission and to the rear cross member
Rear Cross Member.
This is the only rear fabrication that you will have to deal with. Depending on the car that you are installing the transmission in you may be able to re-use your rear cross member with minor fabrication.
On my Donohue I re-used the rear transmission cross member that was used for the 4-spd transmission. I first removed all of the AMC related parts from the cross member leaving a bare component. A simple flat plate adapter was fabricated and mounted to the bottom of the cross member going forward . Another square adapter was fabricated to bolt on to the plate, and a transmission mount RPM 9106-63-80 Ford/Mercury rubber mount was bolted to the bottom of the T-5 and onto the square adapter.
(See the attached j-peg’s)
Mounting the Rear Cross member and adapter dimensions.
On the '70 Jav. there are two sets of bolt holes that can be used to mount the transmission mount to the under side of the car. I relocated the existing transmission mount cross member to the rear most holes in the chassis. This location thus identified the dimensions for the adapter. Once the transmission is hanging in the car, the dimensions for the adapter can be measured and filed to fit. The dimensions of the adapter that I used to mount the transmission in my 1970 Donohue that originally had a 4 speed in it are as follows.
The adapter is two (2) pieces.
One (1) block is 3 and 1/2 by 2 and 1/2 and one (1) inch thick.
The second (2nd) piece is a plate, 6 and 1/2 by 4 and 1/8 and 1/8 inch thick.
The block and the plate are bolted on to the underside of the existing (in my case) four (4) speed transmission cross member. The block and the plate are attached together on the trailing side. That is the side towards the back of the car.
The long end of the plate projects forward towards the engine. The Ford/Mercury transmission mount than bolts on to the leading end of the plate and then on to the transmission.
All of this fabrication can be done with a hack saw and a file with material purchased from a hardware store, this is not Rocket Scientist stuff
Also the transmission does sit at about a 6 degree angle, either cut the square block to correspond to the angle, or shim it up with washers on the drivers side, (my choice).Other sources of transmissions may have more or less angle. Take this into consideration when you are fabricating your transmission mounts.
There was a casting on bottom of the tail shaft of the transmission that looked like some kind of a universal application, it was not used in the Mustang, and was not going to be used on the Javelin, but it was in the way, hack/chop saw it off.
If you do not have the option of multiple transmission mount, mounting locations a solution that may work would be to obtain some All-Thread from a Hard Ware store. It is usually sold in 3 foot lengths. Cut a chunk off and bend it in the shape of an " L ". Drill a hole in the unibody chassis member you are going to install the transmission mount cross member and insert the short side of " L " in that hole and run every thing else up to it with a nut. This method can also be used to replace bolts that no longer will work because the nut in side the uni-body member is gone do to age or rust.
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Pilot Bearing.
You are on your own, for medical reasons, I had my transmission installed, the shop that did it indicated that they made their own pilot bearings on a lathe and they were very nonchalant about it. The 79 Spirit AMX used a T-4 and a 304 V-8, possible that pilot bearing would work . Could be a 6 cylinder one would work too, I don't know but if your local Chrysler dealer has an interested parts man at the counter he could look it up for you. I would ask if the V-8/6 pilot bearings are the same part number for the 4-speed applications for 1979 and if they were, buy one. (AMC part nr. 323 6726)
Francois Pigeon <midnight-rambler@postmark.net>, found a DIRECT FIT PILOT BUSHING: BCA BEARING # PB-76-HD
---------------------------------------------------new information to be verified:
Date: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 06:51 AM
From: andrew hay <adh@an.bradford.ma.us>
a late-'70s amc 3sp [150t] has the same pilot; i assume john's p/n is for this bushing.
afaik the 4sp [sr4, and later amc t4/t5] pilot is smaller.
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There were two switches on my transmission, one said it was in 5th, the other was a reverse switch. Locate the reverse switch and wire it into your wiring harness.
Drive shaft.
It should be understood that the drive shaft length would need to be altered. I do not believe that the length was modified on my ‘70 Donohue, originally equipped with a BW T-10. Drive shaft length modifications seem to be commonly done at a number of automotive related machine shops in the areas that I have lived in lately but if you do not have a service close to you look for ads in an automotive or off road book or magazines available at a news rack. There will be a number of advertisements for mail order services. The going price is between $60-$100.
It might also pay to obtain the Mustang drive shaft as the front portion may have to be grafted onto your AMC drive shaft for transmission Yoke and universal compatibility.
Yoke
If you have obtained transmission yoke with the Mustang transmission you will be able to use it. If not than a Yoke from an AMC SR4, T4 or T5 transmission can be used along with the yoke from an AMC (904) automatic transmission
There are also universals available from your favorite automotive store that uses 2 sets of different size bearings so that transmissions swaps can be done and not have to modify either the transmission or the drive shaft. If needed, that is another alternative available to you.
Speedometer Cable
If you have to obtain a new speedometer cable use one from a Javelin T-10 application as that is the longest cable and will be able to be used with any AMC body.,
Speedometer Calibration or accuracy
I do not have a clear cut solution to that problem.
Initially I had an 18 tooth gear (yellow) on the end of the cable,. this was the gear recommended for a Mustang application with 3.07: 1 rear axle gear, I have a 3.15:1 positraction, and P205-70R14's, the same size tires I run. With the 120MPH speedometer in the Javelin, it read about 20 MPH fast at 70. I have just installed a 21 tooth gear (red) and now it is bout 5 MPH fast. I have a feeling the solution will very from car to car depending on the year and the maximum reading on the speedometer, 85 vs. 140
Red Gear number F-DOOZ17271A
Lubrication
You can improve the reliability by using motor oil as a lubricant rather than the ATF the thing is designed to use., I use 15W50 synthetic motor oil (Mobile 1). The transmission is not designed to lube correctly with 90 weight gear lube, the oil passages are too small and parts will run dry and give trouble. Do not use 90 weight if you want maximum reliability.
Driving Reaction
Drivability. I like it, I have a 3.15:1 posi rear axle. P205-70 HR14 tires and the engine has a cam.
First gear is short, this allows me to drive the car in city traffic with out burning out the clutch. ( as compared to my 4-spd), 2nd is between 1st and 2nd of the four spd, and is a very usable gear, 3rd is almost the same as the 4 spd and with the 3,15:1 axle, it a very usable road gear. 4th is one to one. nuff said. 5th is a .76 overdrive. It loafs down the road. Final gearing works out to a tad over 32 MPH per 1000 RPM. This means just off idle, I can exceed city speed limits in 5th. The way the thing is set up with the cam and the Carter, there is no bog and drives like it has fuel injection, and will float along in 5th at 1000 RPM.
Due to the gear ratio’s of the Mustang T5 in my mind this is not a good drag racing set up. You will have a wide ratio 4-speed with a 3.15:1 axle, the gearing is wrong for good drag racing. Yes acceleration will be fairly rapid in 1st and 2nd, but 3rd will be a little tall as well 4th. But you will be able to shift from 4th to 5th and 125 and keep on accelerating as far as your guts will let you. If you are using 3.56;1, 1st will be very low, but your freeway response would be killer. I can get as high as 22 mpg, I have also gotten 4, guess how.
I have generated a table below that gives speed vs gear selection at 4500 rpm using two different rear axle ratio’s. The common 3.56:1 rear axle gears found in AMC 4 speed cars with a T-10 , vs the same car with a 3.15:1 rear axle.
Table as follows compares T-10 4 spd to T-5 5 spd to show differences in transmission gearing:
Please note that there were a number of gear ratios availble internally to the T-10 as used by AMC and there may also be a variation of gear ratios available in the Mustang T-5.
This is only one selection based on my car. Other selections will have different results.
Tire P205HR70-14
Dia. 25.4 Inches
Engine RPM 4500
rear axle ratio 3.56:1 (A) 3.15:1 (B)
1st 2.23 42mph 48mph
2nd 1.77 53 61
3rd 1.35 70 84
4th 1.00 95 107
The above reflect typical transmission gear rations in a 1970 4spd T-10
1st 3.35 28 (C) 32 (D)
2nd 1.98 48 54
3rd 1.34 71 80.5
4th 1.00 95 107
5th .76 125 143
Note, 1st gear @D equates to A with a 4.8:1 rear axle.
The above reflects the gear ratios of the T-5 as close as I can determine. It should emphasis that the gear ratios of the 4/5/6 spd plus rear axle ratio and tire size should be looked at so the car when done will reflect the type of driving you plan to do to make it worth your while.
Other reference material that you may find important.
Hanlon Motor sports or D&D or National Drive train...they call carry upgrades for the T5 that will increase it's torque handling ability. Pick up any copy of Fast Fords or Mustang Monthly, there are lots of adds in there.
http://www.5speeds.com/
http://www.5speeds.com/t5/index.html
(upgrade a fact t5 to liberty gear sets )(w/2.95 gear set ) This needs further research to find out the specifics.11/8/02, again liberty Gear Sets have been mentioned as very reliable Feb 03)
Every effort has been made to confirm accuracy however it is altogether possible this is an error in here some where. If you find one please send the correction back to me if you have one.
With best regards
John T Elle
Note, this information was obtained June 18, 2002 and has not been edited into the general information package so can not verify accuracy or availability but it looks pretty good at this time.
hi john, thanx again. The bell that i have MUST BE A 150t bell it has an 8 inch spacing on top and bottom bolts actually has 3-4 different bolt patterns (bell housing was not on donor car was just laying around old junk yard near my home have no idea what year or make it was on!!) i do have complete donor ford 82 mustang also have drivable 82 t-bird ..pulled 302 out of mustang to replace stock 296 v-8 in bird(4 hundred thousand miles and still runs?!?!). mustang has t-4 single rail shifter with exact length input shaft(6.5") for the amc bell.. it fits amc bell perfect (bolt pattern ford tranny to amc bell)..lol. i called ford motor sports tech line and talked to them told them what i was doing!! they told me that the number m7003-r58(t-5) was the tranny i needed to match input(t-4) length in a tremec 5-speed and would match the stock bolt pattern on the 4-speed(which fits the amc bell)...the right tremec for an amc?? i figured amc ran those t-5's stock they should have a bushing to fit..looked in clutch book at napa and found 79 amx carried 10.5"(same as 68 jav w/390) clutch with 1 1/16" pilot 10 spine clutch ..same as ford t-5..ford input bush inside o.d.is .66"... 79 amx should be the same??? i could use all the info you could send me. boy we sure need some scattershields made too..i like my legs and feet ALOT..lol. back to the tremec t-5 and ford they told me the 7003 r58 tranny was out of a cobra "R" had 351 v-8 and had capacity of 350 ft.lbs torque and carried .68/1 5th gear..drop those rpm's!!! i actually ordered a tremec from sumitt first and they sent me a tranny with different bolt pattern than t-4(mustang) thats when i called ford.. that wrong tranny's part number was a m7003-z. went to jegs.com and found 7003-r58 tranny ..found nice picture of tranny and it looks like the right bolt pattern..sumitt will have the "correct" t-5 here thurs or fri hopefully. i wrote down the bushing part numbers you sent me..thanx ...for input lengths and other measurements go to richmond gears web sight they have alot of tech info on all major makes it's on the 6-speed page..thanx again...ALOT!! KEEP ON RAMBLIN' and GOD BLESS THE U.S.A.!! ed atwood...
javelin@atlantic.net p.s. i do have some worries and questions concerning speed-o cables and adapting amc's to a ford
tranny...HELP!!...LOL
 This is taken from an email John Elle sent me |
 This is taken from an email John Elle sent me |
I have included on this e-mail a couple of not very clear pictures of the underside of the Donohue showing the transmission mount adapter that was made and simply bolted onto the existing transmission cross member the previously supported the 4 speed. The 4 bolts are where it was bolted onto the cross member and 2 bolts are where the compatible Ford Products transmission mount was bolted onto the adapter. Each case and application will be different depending on what is under the car in the first place but will be generally the same. This is simple to make and requires no really special tools. |
The second pictures shows where the Mustang shift lever came through the floor. The hole for the shifter will be quite large as a part of the top loader assembly will be very close to the floor. How ever using the Mustang shifting boot, the hole will be covered up. |