May 15, 1912

Mr. Charles Victor Groves sworn.

Examined by Mr. S.A.T. Rowlatt.

8111. Charles Victor Groves, is that your name?--Yes.
8112. Were you second officer of the "Californian?"--Yes, I was on the ship's articles as second officer, but
took the duties of third.
8113. You are referred to as third officer in the papers?--Yes.
8114. You remember Sunday, the 14th?--Yes.
8115. Was your watch from 8 p.m. till midnight?--Yes.
8116. And we know your steamer stopped because she got among the ice?--Yes.
8117. At 10.26 was it?--Yes, at 10.26.
8118. And you had had a double look-out. We have heard about that and I will not ask you again?--Yes, a
double look-out.
8119. Since about 6?--Since about 6.
8120. Had you seen any icebergs, you yourself, in the afternoon?--Yes.
8121. Where did you see them?--About 5 miles to the southward of us.
8122. What time was that?--About 20 minutes past 5 when I saw them, when I relieved the bridge. I relieved
the chief officer then for his tea.
8123. You are talking about by your clock?--Yes, ship's time.
8124. When you came on watch at 8 o'clock was it clear?--Yes, quite clear.
8125. Could you see the horizon?--No, you could not see where the horizon in the sky finished but you could
see stars right down as far as the sea.
8126. According to your judgement was there anything in the shape of a haze?--No, nothing whatsoever.
8127. None?--None.
8128. Was the captain on the bridge?--Yes.
8129. How long did he stay there?--He stopped there till about 10.35--perhaps a few minutes less than that,
but about 10.35.
8130. When he left the bridge did he give you any orders?--No he did not, not at that time. But I saw him
after that.
8131. Did he give you orders about other ships?--Yes.
8132. When was that?--Probably that was just before he left the bridge, about half-past 10, but the exact
time he gave those orders I could not say.
8133. What did he tell you?--He told me to let him know if I saw any ship approaching us.
8134. Did you see any ships approaching?--Yes.
8135. Now, what did you see, and when?--As I said before, the stars were showing right down to the horizon.
It was very difficult at first to distinguish between the stars and a light, they were so low down. About 11.10,
ship's time, I made out a steamer coming up a little bit abaft our starboard beam.
8136. Now, did you look at the clock?--When I saw the steamer?
8137. Yes?--No.
8138. Why did you say 11.15?--I say it was about that.
8139. (The Commissioner.) I think you said 11.10?--Yes, I said about 11.10.
8140. (Mr. Rowlatt.) That is your judgement?--That is my judgement.
8141. When had you last looked at the clock?--Ten-twenty-six--well, I had looked at my watch; we had no
clock on the upper bridge. I set that at 6 o'clock by the ship's clock.
8142. You saw a steamer?--Yes.
8143. What lights did you see?--At first I just saw what I took to be one light, but, of course, when I saw her
first I did not pay particular attention to her, because I thought it might have been a star rising.
8144. When do you think you began to pay particular attention to her?--About 11.15.
8145. About five minutes after you first saw her?--About five minutes after I first saw her.
8146. Did you then see more lights than one?--About 11.25 I made out two lights--two white lights.
8147. Two masthead lights?--Two white masthead lights.
8148. Did you make out any other lights then?--Not at the time, no.
8149. You said that she was a little abaft your starboard beam?--Yes.
8150. How were you heading?--At that time we would be heading N.E. when I saw that steamer first, but we
were swinging all the time because when we stopped the order was given for the helm to be put hard-a-port,
we were swinging, but very, very slowly.
8151. You say you were heading about N.E.?--We were heading N.E.
8152. Did you notice that at the time?--Yes.
8153. Was that with a view to see in what direction the steamer was bearing?--No, for my own information.
8154. But it was at that time?--At that time, yes.
8155. Now, how did she bear, how many points abaft the beam did she bear?--Do you mean when I first
noticed her?
8156. Yes?--I should think about 3 1/2 points, but I took no actual bearing of her.
8157. That would leave her S. by W.?--We were heading N.E. and she was three points abaft the beam.
8158. Your beam would be?--S.E.
8159. That would bring her about 7?--S. or S. by W.--S. 1/2 W.
8160. Could you form any judgement how far off she was?--When I saw her first light I should think she would be about 10 or 12 miles.
8161. Judging by the look of the light?--By the look of the light and the clearness of the light.
8162. (The Commissioner.) That was when you saw the one light?--Yes, when I say she was 10 to 12 miles
away.
8163. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did she appear to get nearer?--Yes.
8164. The lights clearer?--Yes, all the time.
8165. Was she changing her bearing?--Slowly.
8166. Coming round more to the south and west?--More on our beam, yes, more to the south and west, but
very little.
8167. Did you report that to the captain?--Yes, because, as I said before, he left orders to let him know if I
saw any steamers approaching.
8168. You went down to him?--I went down to the lower bridge, which is part of the saloon deck.
8169. (The Commissioner.) Would this be something after 11 o'clock?--Yes, my Lord, when I went down to
him it would be as near as I could judge about 11.30.
8170. (Mr. Rowlatt.) What did you say to him?--I knocked at his door and told him there was a steamer
approaching us coming up on the starboard quarter.
8171. (The Commissioner.) The door of what?--The door of the chart room. It is a venetian door.
8172. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you say what sort of a steamer you thought she was?-Captain Lord said to me,
"Can you make anything out of her lights?" I said, "Yes, she is evidently a passenger steamer coming up on
us."
8173. (The Commissioner.) "Could you make anything out of her lights?"--Yes.
8174. "I said, 'She is evidently a passenger steamer'"?--Yes, my Lord.
8175. You added something to that answer?--"Coming up on the starboard quarter."
8176. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you say why you thought she was a passenger steamer?--Yes. I told him I could
see her deck lights and that made me pass the remark that she was evidently a passenger steamer.
8177. (The Commissioner.) "I said I could see her deck lights"; was that true?--Certainly, my Lord.
8178. (Mr. Rowlatt.) How many deck lights had she? Had she much light?--Yes, a lot of light. There was
absolutely no doubt her being a passenger steamer, at least in my mind.
8179. Could you see much of her length?--No, not a great deal; because as I could judge she was coming
up obliquely to us.
8180. She was foreshortened?--Supposing we were heading *this* way she would be coming up in *this*
way perhaps an angle of 45 degrees to us (demonstrating).
8181. So that her side would not be greatly extended?--No.
8182. Now that is all you said to the captain before he said something to you?--Yes. He said, "Call her up on
the Morse lamp, and see if you can get any reply."
8183. Did anything pass as to what passenger steamers you were speaking with the wireless?--Not at that
moment.
8184. The first thing he said was, "Call her up on the Morse lamp"?--Yes.
8185. What did you say to that?--I went up on the bridge; I went away and went up on the bridge and I
rigged the Morse lamp.
8186. (The Commissioner.) How long does it take to do that?--It is only a matter of taking a key out of a
locker up *there* and just putting the plug in.
8187. A minute?--Yes, that is all.
8188. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you get any reply?--Not at first, no reply whatsoever.
8189. Did you afterwards?--Well, what I took to be a reply. I saw what I took to be a light answering, and
then I sent the word "What?" meaning to ask what ship she was. When I sent "What?" his light was
flickering. I took up the glasses again and I came to the conclusion it could not have been a Morse lamp.
8190. (The Commissioner.) Is the long and short of it this, that you did not get a reply, in your opinion?--In
my opinion, no.
8191. You thought at first you had?--Yes, I thought at first I had.
8192. But you satisfied yourself that you were wrong?--That is so.
8193. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you go down again to the captain?--No, he came to the bridge.
8194. Was there anyone else there except you and he?--Not on the bridge.
8195. Did you tell the captain about the Morseing?--Yes.
8196. What did he say?--He saw a flickering himself, and he passed the remark to me. He said, "She is
answering you." This is just before I sent the word "What?"
8197. After that was done, did you have any more conversation with the captain about the steamer?--When
he came up on the bridge he said to me, "That does not look like a passenger steamer." I said, "It is, Sir.
When she stopped her lights seemed to go out, and I suppose they have been put out for the night."
8198. (The Commissioner.) You said, "It is"?--Yes, my Lord.
8199. Now, what about putting out the lights?--I said she put out her lights as she stopped.
8200. (Mr. Rowlatt.) You have not told us about that yet, but before you come to that, was there anything
said at that time about the passenger steamers that you were in communication with by wireless?--Nothing
whatsoever.
8201. Was anything said at any time about the "Titanic"?--After the captain came on the bridge.
8202. Was that before the lights appeared to go out?--No, that was after.
8203. (The Commissioner.) You said something about the lights of the ship going out. When did they go
out?--At 11.40.
8204. Was the captain standing with you?--No, my Lord.
8205. At that time?--No, my Lord.
8206. Had he gone away?--He had not been on the bridge again since about 10.35.
8207. You went on the bridge after he had told you to signal with the Morse light?--Yes.
8208. And you did signal and then, as I understand, the Captain came on to the bridge?--Not until after I
was Morseing when he came up.
8209. Very well, and he remarked to you, "She does not look like a passenger steamer"?--That is so.
8210. And you said, "It is"?--Yes.
8211. Now you said something about the lights going out; what was it?--Well he said to me, "It does not look
like a passenger steamer." I said, "Well, she put her lights out at 11.40"--a few minutes ago that was.
8212. Then had she put her lights out before the captain came on the bridge?--Yes, my Lord.
8213. When did she put her lights out?--At 11.40.
8214. And you told the captain this, did you?--Yes.
8215. What did he say to that; did he say anything?--When I remarked about the passenger steamer he
said: "The only passenger steamer near us is the 'Titanic.'"
8216. He said that, did he?--Yes, my Lord.
8217. (Mr. Rowlatt.) What makes you fix the time 11.40 for her lights going out?--Because that is the time
we struck one bell to call the middle watch.
8218. Do you remember that bell was struck at that time?--Most certainly.
8219. Did the steamer continue on her course after that?--No, not so far as I could see.
8220. She stopped?--She stopped.
8221. Was that at the time when her lights appeared to go out?--That was at the time when her lights
appeared to go out.
8222. Were the lights you saw on her port side or on her starboard side?--Port side.
8223. I want to ask you a question. Supposing the steamer whose lights you saw turned two points to port at
11.40, would that account to you for her lights ceasing to be visible to you?--I quite think it would.
The Commissioner: Mr. Rowlatt, at 11.40 the engines were stopped on the "Titanic."
Mr. Rowlatt: Yes, my Lord.
The Commissioner: I do not know whether that would cause a large number of lights to go out. They had a
supplemental dynamo.
Mr. Rowlatt: I think the only evidence about lights going out was that at some time after this the lights in a
particular stokehold went out for a short time.
The Commissioner: Oh, yes, I know that, but is it not the fact that at some time the lights in the ship, except
the lights in the alleyways and the working parts of the ship did go out.
Mr. Rowlatt: I do not remember that there is any evidence of that; I do not know how it would be. I do not
know whether those who sit with you could indicate whether it would necessarily follow the engines stopping.
I should imagine the engines stopping would not put the lights out.
The Commissioner: Did that emergency apparatus working the electric light supply the whole ship with
electric light?
Mr Rowlatt: I am not in a position to answer that question at the moment.
The Commissioner: Did it, Mr. Laing?
Mr. Laing: No, my Lord; the emergency dynamo does not supply the whole of the lights.
The Commissioner: It supplies only, as I understand, the light in what you may call the working parts of the
ship--the alleyways, the engine rooms.
Mr. Laing: And the deck cabins, I think.
The Commissioner: The deck cabins?
Mr. Laing: I think so.
The Commissioner: I do not think so.
Mr. Laing: Some of them, at any rate
Mr. Rowlatt: It can hardly be that when they stop the ship going forward the ship is plunged in darkness
automatically. It only means they stopped the engines which actuate the propellers.
The Commissioner: At some time the light which was produced by the main engines did go out.
Mr. Rowlatt: The lights went out in a stokehold.
The Commissioner: I remember that. It came on again in a few minutes; in something like ten minutes it
came back again. That was temporary.
Mr. Rowlatt: I apprehend that the engine which produces the electric light is not the same engine as the
engine which turns the propellers.
The Commissioner: Which engine is it?
Mr. Rowlatt: I cannot tell your Lordship at the moment. We will find out.
The Commissioner: There is a separate engine which works what I call the emergency electric light
machine, is not there?
Mr. Rowlatt: There is, my Lord.
The Commissioner: Now where is the engine that works the electric light when that emergency apparatus is
not in use?
Mr. Rowlatt: I cannot point to it at the moment--it is immediately abaft the turbine.
The Commissioner: It is abaft the turbine?
Mr. Rowlatt: Yes.
The Commissioner: Very well. Now I understand it. Those engines would be going on just the same although
the signal had come from the bridge to stop the main engines.
Mr. Rowlatt: Yes. I have got an answer from the witness which may throw some light upon it. He said that, in
his opinion, the turning of the ship--
The Commissioner: I heard him. That would be when the order was given to change direction.
Mr. Rowlatt: Hard-a-starboard: and your Lordship remembers we had evidence that the ship did answer to
the extent of two points at once.
The Commissioner: Yes, she did answer her helm. Very well; two points you were saying.
Mr. Rowlatt: Two points, my Lord. The man at the compass said he altered her course two points.
The Commissioner: A change of two points to port would conceal the lights in the ship?
8224. (Mr. Rowlatt--To the Witness.) Did you say "would" or "might"? I do not want to put it too high?--In my own private opinion it would.
8225. You are speaking of deck lights?--Yes.
8226. Lights from the ports and windows?--Yes.
8227. Did you continue to see the masthead lights?--Yes.
8228. Did you see any navigational lights--side lights?--I saw the red port light.
8229. (The Commissioner.) When did you see that?--As soon as her deck lights disappeared from my view.
8230. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did it strike you that going out of the glare of the other lights could show up the port
light? Is that what you mean?--Yes, it would do.
8231. I mean, you are not suggesting that the port light was opened, having been shut in before?--Oh, no.
8232. I only want to understand. You cannot see a red light in the midst of the glare of the deck lights. That
is what you mean?--Yes, because of the blaze of the white lights
8233. Was that at 11.40?--Yes.
8234. It was after this that you had a conversation with the captain about the "Titanic"?--Yes.
8235. (The Commissioner.) Did the captain see these lights disappear?--Not to my knowledge, my Lord.
8236. Was he there when you saw them disappear?--Not on the bridge.
8237. Where was he--in the chart-room?--I could not be certain where he was at that particular moment.
When I spoke to him about the steamer coming up astern he was in the chart-room.
8238. But at the time you saw the white lights of the steamer disappear he was not standing with you?--No,
my Lord.
8239. It was after you had seen those white lights disappear that you had a conversation with him in which
he said to you "the only passenger steamer is the 'Titanic'"?--That is so.
8240. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you have any further conversation with the captain?--I did not.
8241. Did he stay on the bridge or go down again?--I do not think he would have been up there for more
than three minutes at the outside with me.
8242. Then he went down again?--He did.
8243. Did you stop on the bridge?--I stopped on the bridge.
8244. Did you continue to observe the steamer?--After I had tried ineffectually to Morse her I did not pay
any particular attention to her.
8245. Did you not notice her or did you notice her?--Oh, I noticed her certainly.
8246. Was she keeping her same position?--The same position, yes. We were swinging slowly to port, very
slowly.
8247. Did you not take her bearing by the compass?--Not that steamer's bearing, no.
8248. She would appear to be coming round more towards your stern?--No, she would appear, as we were
swinging, to be working towards our head.
8249. I thought you were swinging to port?--No, we were swinging to starboard--that is to the right hand.
8250. How long did you stay on the bridge?--I stayed on the bridge till something between 12.10 and 12.15.
8251. And then were you relieved by Mr. Stone?--I was.
8252. (The Commissioner.) 12.15?--I could not be sure of the exact time.
8253. You were relieved by whom?--Mr. Stone.
8254. (Mr. Rowlatt.) The last witness we had yesterday, my Lord. (To the Witness.) Was he the first person
that came on the bridge after the captain went down?--Was there anybody else there? I only want to know
whether I have missed out anything?--No, there was nobody up on the bridge from the time that the captain
left until Mr. Stone came up.
8255. Very well. Did you point out the steamer to Mr. Stone?--Yes.
8256. Did you tell him what you thought she was?--Yes.
8257. What did you say?--I pointed out the steamer to him and said, "She has been stopped since 11.40";
and I said, "She is a passenger steamer. At about the moment she stopped she put her lights out."
8258. (The Commissioner.) Wait a moment; "I pointed the steamer out to Stone and said, 'She is a
passenger steamer. She put her lights out.'" Do you mean by that she shut her light out?--She shut her lights
out, my Lord.
The Commissioner: "About 11.40."
8259. (Mr. Rowlatt.) To get it quite clear, at that time was it your impression she had put her lights out or
shut them out?--At that time it was my impression she had shut them out, but I remember distinctly
remarking to him that she had put them out.
8260. (The Commissioner.) That means that she had shut them out?--Yes.
8261. That is what you intended to convey?--Yes.
8262. That she had shut them out?--Yes.
8263. By changing her position?--By changing her position.
The Commissioner: Is that right, Mr. Rowlatt; is that the answer you expected?
Mr. Rowlatt: I was asking for information, my Lord, because I thought he had said before that he thought she
had put her lights out because of the time of night.
The Commissioner: I think he did say something of that sort.
Mr. Rowlatt: I thought he did, and I asked for information to get it clear.
8264. (The Commissioner--To the Witness.) Did you say that you thought she had put her lights out because
of the time of night?--I did say that, I think, my Lord.
8265. Then which is it to be, that she shut them out because she was changing her position, or that she had
put them out because, in your opinion it was bed-time on board the ship?--Well, at the time the lights
disappeared I thought in my own mind she had put them out because in the ships I was accustomed to
before I joined this company it was the custom to put all the deck lights out, some at 11, some at 11.30, and
some at midnight--all the deck lights except those absolutely necessary to show the way along the different
decks. But when I saw the ice I came to the conclusion that she had starboarded to escape some ice.
8266. You came to the conclusion then, did you, while you were on the bridge?--Yes, my Lord.
The Commissioner: It comes to this, Mr. Rowlatt, at first he thought the lights had been put out, but when he
reflected about it and observed she changed her position he thought she had shut her lights out, which is a
different thing.
8267. (Mr. Rowlatt.) I do not know that he said he observed that she changed her position. (To the Witness.)
This vessel was stopped at this time, was she not?--Yes.
Mr. Rowlatt: He accepted my suggestion, my Lord, that if the vessel did change her course it might shut her
lights out; it would shut her lights out.
The Commissioner: I think you are right. What he said was the change of two points to port might, or, as he
said, would, obscure the lights.
Mr. Rowlatt: We know she changed two points--the vessel we are talking about changed two points.
The Commissioner: Would a change of two points such as we know took place on the "Titanic" cause the
two white masthead lights to alter their relative positions?
8268. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Yes. (To the Witness.) Would that be so?--Yes, it would, but I do not think at that
distance the difference would be perceptible
8269. It would bring them a little nearer together?--Yes, a little nearer together.
8270. Did you notice anything of that sort?--No, I did not.
8271. You went off the bridge?--Yes.
8272. Where did you go?--The Marconi house.
8273. Is the Marconi operator, Mr.Evans?--Yes.
8274. Did you find him there?--Yes.
8275. Was he asleep?--He was asleep.
8276. He had gone to bed?--He had gone to bed, yes.
8277. Did you wake him up?--Yes.
8278. And have some conversation with him?--Yes.
8279. What passed?--The only think I remember asking him was "What ships have you got, Sparks?"
8280. Sparks?--Yes.
8281. Is that his name?--No, it is the name he gets on the ship.
The Commissioner: Seeing he is the operator, you know why he is called "Sparks."
8282. (Mr. Rowlatt.) You asked him what ships he had got. What did he say?--Only the "Titanic."
8283. Did you take his instruments and put them on your ears?--Yes.
8284. Could you read a message if you heard one?--If it is sent slowly--yes.
8285. Did you hear anything?--Nothing at all.
8286. How long did you listen?--I do not suppose it would be more than 15 seconds at the outside--well, 15
to 30 seconds. I did it almost mechanically.
8287 Did you do anything more before you turned in?--I may have said a few more words to him, but I have
no recollection, but when I left his house I went straight to my cabin.
8288. And went to bed?--And went to bed.
8289. (The Commissioner.) What time was it you were talking to this man whom you call Sparks?--As near
as I judge it would be between 12.15 and 12.20.
8290. (Mr. Rowlatt.) What time did you turn out again in the morning?--About 6.40; I did not notice the time
particularly.
8291. Were you woke up by the chief officer?--Yes.
8292. Who is that?--Mr. Stewart.
8293. Did he come to your room?--Yes.
8294. Did he tell you you were wanted on the bridge?--He did.
8295. (The Commissioner.) 6.40, was it?--About it.
8296. "Stewart, the chief officer, told me to come on the bridge"?--Yes.
8297. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did he say why?--Yes. He said, "The 'Titanic' has sunk, and the passengers are all in
the lifeboats in the water ahead of us," or words to that effect.
8298. (The Commissioner.) The passengers were in the lifeboats ahead of you?--Yes.
8299. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you see Mr. Stone?--I saw Mr. Stone almost immediately after the chief officer left
my room.
8300. Where was he?--He was in his room.
8301. Is that close to yours?--Yes, two or three yards away, that is all; diagonally opposite.
8302. Do you mean you went out of your room before you dressed and saw him?--Yes, I jumped straight out
of my bunk and I went to his room.
8303. Had he been on the watch from 12 to 4?--From 12 to 4.
8304. Now, did he tell you anything had happened in his watch?--Yes, he told me he had seen rockets.
8305. Did he say where the rockets were, or what sort of rockets, or anything of that sort?--As far as my
recollection goes all he said was he had seen rockets in his watch, but at that time I did not pay particular
attention to what he said, except that he had mentioned rockets.
8306. You do not remember more than that he mentioned rockets?--No, nothing more.
8307. You do not remember anything more passing with him at that time?--Well, I went to his room for the
purpose of asking him if he was right about the "Titanic," and he said, "Yes, old chap, I saw rockets in my
watch," and I went straight back to my cabin.
8308. (The Commissioner.) This conversation is important. (To the Witness.) When you went from your own
cabin, before you dressed, to his cabin you naturally went to ask more about the "Titanic"?--Yes.
8309. You had just heard that she had gone down?--Yes.
8310. Now try to recollect what the conversation you had with Stone was?--I went only to his door; he was
just getting dressed himself then, and I said, "Is this right, Mr. Stone, about the 'Titanic'?" I told him what the
chief officer had said. He said, "Yes, that is right; hurry up and get dressed; we shall be wanted in the
boats." He said, "I saw rockets in my watch."
8311. That conveys to me the notion that when he said he saw rockets in his watch he was referring to the
rockets which he believed had come from the "Titanic." Did he give you that impression?--Well, it is rather
difficult for me to say what impression I got then because I was rather excited, but I have told you what he
said to me and what I said to him.
8312. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you dress?--Yes.
8313. And go up on the bridge?--Yes, I went straight up on the bridge as soon as I was dressed.
8314. What did you find when you got there?--Ice all around us and icebergs.
8315. Was your ship under way?--The ship was under way then, and I could feel her bumping the ice and I
knew she had got a good speed on by that.
8316. She had not started when you went off your watch?--No.
8317. You did not know when she did start, because you were asleep?--I was asleep.
8318. She had started when you were called, had she?--She was under way then.
8319. Were your lifeboats being swung out?--Yes, the lifeboats were being swung out then.
8320. This was about half-past six, I suppose?--Well, about half-past six; I said 6.40 when I was first called.
8321. Now it is getting on for 7?--I suppose by the time I got on the bridge it would be 6.50; but you
understand the time is only approximately.
8322. I quite understand that. Were there any other vessels in sight?--Yes.
8323. What were they?--There was a four masted steamer abeam on our port side.
8324. What steamer was that?--I did not know at the time, but afterwards she was the "Carpathia."
8325. Abeam on your port side?--Abeam on our port side.
8326. In what direction were you going?--That I could not say.
8327. You did not notice?--No.
8328. How far off was she?--I should think she would be about 5 miles--possibly more, possibly less, but
about five.
8329. Did you look at her with the glass?--I did.
8330. Who asked you to do that, anybody?--The captain.
8331. Did you make out anything about her?--After I had been looking at her I made out she had her house
flag half-mast. She had a red funnel with a black top.
8332. (The Commissioner.) She had what half-mast?--Her house flag.
8333. What is that?--Her company's flag.
8334. Is there any significance in it's being half-mast?--It is half-mast for death, my Lord.
8335. (Mr. Rowlatt.) That is how you understood it at the time?--That is what I understood it to mean.
8336. It was because of the disaster to the "Titanic" that this vessel was flying her house flag half-mast?--
Yes.
8337. What did your vessel do then?--We continued on our course for a little time after I had told the
captain she had a red funnel with a black top and the house flag half-masted, and the next thing that was
done we starboarded.
8338. You made straight for her?--We made practically straight for her.
8339. Did you see any other vessel?--Yes, I saw two other vessels.
8340. At this time?--Yes. I fancy one of them was in sight at the same time as I noticed this four-master.
8341. (The Commissioner.) Do you know what they were?--I know what one of them was.
8342. What was it?--The "Mount Temple."
8343. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Where was she?--She was ahead, a little on our starboard side when I saw her first.
8344. Before you changed your course?--Before we headed for the "Carpathia."
8345. How far off was she, do you think?--Well, when I noticed her first--I had been paying particular
attention to this other steamer--I should think she would be perhaps a mile and a half away from us.
8346. Nearer that the "Carpathia."--Much nearer than the "Carpathia."
8347. Was she stopped?--Stopped.
8348. In the ice?--In the ice.
8349. Did you see any other vessel?--I saw another vessel a little on our port bow; she was coming down
almost end on.
8350. (The Commissioner.) You do not know her name?--I do not, but as far as I remember she had a black
funnel. She was a small steamer.
8351. (Mr. Rowlatt.) Did you reach the "Carpathia"?--We did.
8352. What time did you reach the "Carpathia"?--I think it would be about 7.45.
8353. Did she signal to you first?--Yes.
8354. That the "Titanic" had struck an iceberg?--Not at first. The first signal shown was fixed on the jumper
stay. That is a signal that she wanted to semaphore.
8355. Did she signal to you by semaphore?--Yes.
8356. What did she tell you?--I think the first question she asked was had we any survivors on board,
survivors or people, I do not know which she said.
8357. Did you answer by semaphore?--We did.
8358. You said, no?--We said, No.
8359. Did she say anything more?--Yes; I think the next thing that happened was, I fancy, we asked him if
we could be of any assistance, and he said, No.
8360. Were you personally signalling?--No, I was not, but I was reading it.
8361. Anything more--any more messages?--That passed between us?--Yes.
8362. (The Commissioner.) Tell us shortly?--He told us the "Titanic" had struck an iceberg at 12 o'clock and
had sunk at 3, and they had 800 or 700--I am not sure which--people on board, including Mr. Bruce Ismay.
When we asked him if we could be of any assistance they said, no. And then Captain Lord suggested that
we should search down to leeward.
8363. Your captain?--Yes.
8364. Did you search to leeward?--Yes.
8365. Did you find anything?--Only boats and wreckage.
8366. Empty boats?--Boats with no people in.
8367. At about 9 a.m. did the "Carpathia" steam off?--Yes, almost exactly at 9 a.m., because I heard her
bell strike.
8368. Did you search longer?--Yes, we searched longer.
8369. Till about 10.40?--Ten-forty exactly. That is when we resumed our course.
8370. After that did you see much more ice?--After 10.40?
8371. Yes?--Yes, we saw a lot of ice; we passed a big field; we passed through a particularly long field
about half a mile wide, and we had to absolutely force our way through it.
8372. Was that further south than the wreckage you had seen from the "Titanic"?--I think it was about the
same latitude, roughly, within a mile or so. But I never said we saw the "Titanic": I said we saw the
wreckage.
8373. Yes, and we assume the wreckage which you saw was the "Titanic" wreckage--that is what I meant?--
Yes.
8374. Do you know whether you carry rockets on your ship?--Yes.
8375. What rockets do you carry?--Distress rockets.
8376. What are they?--Well, I have never seen one fired, so I could not say definitely.
8377. You have never seen one fired?--No.
8378. Is there any inscription on them?--I have not seen a rocket itself, either.
8379. You only know they are there?--I only know they are there.
8380. If you were in distress you would simply send up one of these rockets?--Yes.
8381. And then you would find out for the first time what it looked like?--In my own particular case I should.

Examined by Mr. Scanlan.

8382. At the time you left the bridge was it a clear night?--Quite clear.
8383. Was it so clear that your captain could have picked his way, even through that icefield, to the ship
which you saw?--He could have picked his way through there, but it certainly would not have been a
particularly safe proceeding. There is no doubt he could have done it.
8384. You said when you first saw the ship she appeared to be about 10 miles from you?--Ten to twelve, I
said.
8385. When she came to a stop what was the distance?--Well, I should think about five to seven miles.
8386. In the relative positions of your ship and this ship which you saw, would any person from her see your
starboard light and one masthead light?--When she first stopped she could not have seen it before I left the
bridge.
8387. In the position to which you had swung round, just at the time you were leaving the bridge, if any
person from that ship or from a boat lower down saw you, would they have seen the light you were showing
then, your red starboard light?--It is a green light.
8388. I beg your pardon--your green light?--Yes.
8389. And the white masthead light?--They would have been able to have seen it from the ship
undoubtedly, but as to a boat I am rather doubtful.

Examined by Mr. Harbinson.

8390. Your captain stopped because of the icefield?--Yes.
8391. That is because he considered it exceedingly dangerous?--That is so; at least, I suppose that is what
he concluded.
8392. When you saw this steamer, at any time had you any doubt about its being a passenger steamer?--No
doubt whatsoever.
8393. And you for your part never considered it was a tramp steamer?--No, I did not.
8394. And you told the captain, you have told us, that you believed it was a passenger steamer?--Yes, I told
the captain that.
8395. And that you could see the two masthead lights?--I do not think I told him that I could see two
masthead lights.
Mr. Harbinson: I think you told the Court here to-day--
The Commissioner: Do not take him all through the whole thing again. I have heard the whole of this. It does
not help us to have it all over again.
6396. (Mr. Harbinson.) I do not intend to take him through it all, my Lord. (To the Witness.) You did see two
masthead lights?--Yes, I did see two masthead lights.
8397. What did the captain say when you told him it was a passenger steamer? Do you remember?--Yes, I
do. He said to me, "The only passenger steamer near us is the 'Titanic.'"
The Commissioner: We have got it, you know. He said, "The only passenger steamer about here in the
'Titanic.'"
8398. (Mr. Harbinson.) The question I propose to follow that up with is this: Did the captain make any
observation as to the distance at that time the "Titanic" should be away? Did the captain say at what
distance the "Titanic" would be away at that time?--No.
8399. He said nothing?--Nothing.
8400. Did you know about what distance the "Titanic" should be away?--I had no idea.
8401. When you left the bridge you went to the Marconi operator's house?--Yes.
8402. And he told you the only steamer he had got was the "Titanic"?--Yes.
8403. Did he tell you whether or not he had had any message from the "Titanic"?--No, he did not mention
about any message at all.
8404. Or say what distance the "Titanic" would be away?--No, he did not know; he could not say.
8405. What time that night had the Marconi operator gone to bed?--That I cannot say, but it was some time
previous to 12.15 or 12.20. That is all I know about it.
8406. If the Marconi operator had not been in bed, but up and in charge of his instrument, would he have
been likely to hear the message sent out by the "Titanic"?--As far as I know.
The Commissioner: You had better ask the Marconi man when he comes.

Examined by Mr. Laing.

8407. Two questions. Do you carry two masthead lights?--Yes.
8408. How many masts have you got?--Four masts.
8409. Where do you keep the after masthead light?--On the mainmast.
8410. And the forward one?--On the foremast.
8411. What sort of span is there between the two?--Longitudinally?
8412. Yes, is it short or long? That is all I want to know?--The distance roughly would be about 70 feet.

Examined by Mr. Holmes.

8413. When you were searching for the wreckage, what boats exactly was it you saw in the water?--We saw
the "Titanic" lifeboats.
8414. How many?--I think there were 7.
8415. Would that be boats cut adrift?--They were left by the "Carpathia."
8416. How many officers had you on the "Californian"?--Three.
8417. What watches did you keep?--The ordinary sea watches; 4 on and 8 off.
8418. All through the day?--All through the day and night.
8419. What is the average range of an ordinary ship's side light?--Two miles.
8420. And the mast head light?--Five miles; that is the distance they are supposed to show.
8421. They do show a little further on a clear night?--Yes.

Examined by Mr. Clement Edwards.

8422. When you first went on deck that evening with the officer at about 10 minutes to 7, how long had your
ship been under way at that time?--I do not know.
8423. Was she under way when you were wakened?--She was under way then, yes.
8424. You do not know at all what time?--No.
The Commissioner: I think we have had it in evidence.
Mr. Clement Edwards: There was a statement by the captain, my Lord.
8429. Did you get good sights?--Perfectly good sights.
Mr. Clement Edwards: Six o'clock, my Lord; it is in his log book.

Examined by Mr. Robertson Dunlop.

8425. In the log book it is stated that when you stopped your ship in the ice the position of the ship was 42
degrees 5' N. and longitude 50 degrees 7' W. Is that accurate?--Well, it is bound to be accurate if the
captain put it in.
The Solicitor General: This witness would not know, would he?
8426. (Mr. Robertson Dunlop.) You were on duty from 10.20 when you started until 12.15?--Yes.
8427. The position of your vessel had been signalled to the "Titanic" at 6.30. Did you know that?--No.
8428. Did you take part in ascertaining the position of your ship at noon on the 15th?--Yes.
8429. Did you get good sights?--Perfectly good sights.
8430. And the position which you found was 41 degrees 33' N.; and the longitude, do you remember what it
was?--No.
8431. 50 degrees 9' W. Do you know how far it was you had steamed between noon and the time you left
the wreckage?--On  the Sunday or Monday?
8432. On the 15th, on the Monday. You take your position at noon on the Monday shortly after leaving the
wreckage, and I want you to help me fix the position of this wreckage?--In reference to our noon position?
8433. Yes; you have the noon position. How far do you think you had travelled from the time that you got on
your way after searching round the wreckage until your noon position? Do you think it would be about five
miles?--No, more than that; about 11. That is in distance.
8434. You would be in the same latitude then as the wreckage was found?--That I could not say.
8435. Do you know your course?--At 10.30 we altered the course to N. 60 degrees W. by compass.
8436. If the "Titanic" was in latitude 41 degrees 33', which is the position she has given, and the position in
which the wreckage was found, and your vessel was, as stated in the log, in latitude 42 degrees 5', the
"Titanic" would be some 33 miles to the southward of the position where you were lying stopped?--If she
stopped in 41 degrees 33' and we were in 42 degrees 5'?
8437. Yes?--Yes, about 30 miles.
8438. And if the "Titanic" were 30 miles to the southward of the position where you were stopped, I do not
suppose you could see any navigation lights at that distance?--No, none whatsoever.
8439. Nor indeed any rockets at that distance?--I could not say about rockets, but I should not think it was
likely.
8440. If this vessel which you did see was only some 4 or 5 miles to the southward of you, do you think she
could have been the "Titanic"?
The Commissioner: That is a question I want this witness to answer. (To the Witness.) Speaking as an
experienced seaman and knowing what you do know now, do you think that steamer that you know was
throwing up rockets, and that you say was a passenger steamer, was the "Titanic"?--Do I think it?
8442. Yes?--From what I have heard subsequently?
8443. Yes?--Most decidedly I do, but I do not put myself as being an experienced man.
8444. But that is your opinion as far as your experience goes?--Yes it is my Lord.
Mr. Robertson Dunlop: That would indicate that the "Titanic" was only 4 or 5 miles to the southward of the
position in which you were when you stopped.
The Commissioner: If his judgement on the matter is true it shows that those figures, latitudes and longitudes that you are referring to are not accurate. That is all it shows.
Mr. Robertson Dunlop: The accuracy we will deal with, my Lord.
The Commissioner: I mean to say, if what he says is right, it follows that the figures must be wrong.
8445. (Mr. Robertson Dunlop.) You will appreciate, Mr. Groves, that if the latitudes are right it follows that
your opinion must be wrong?--If the latitudes are right, then of course I am wrong.
8446. If the latitude of your ship and that of the "Titanic" are anything approximately right, it follows that the
vessel which you saw could not have been the "Titanic"?--Certainly not.
8447. Were the two masthead lights which you saw wide apart indicating a long ship?--They did not look
particularly wide apart.
8448. Did they indicate to you a long ship?--Well, I can form no judgement as to her length. She was coming up obliquely to us.
8449. And at that distance at which you saw her, it would be difficult to estimate the height of those lights?--
Oh, quite difficult.
8450. Then what was there in the appearance of those masthead lights to indicate that this vessel was the
"Titanic"?--Nothing in the appearance of the masthead lights at all.
8451. What, apart from the masthead lights, was there to indicate to you that this was a large passenger
steamer?--The number of deck lights she was showing.
8452. When you saw these deck lights, was the vessel approaching you obliquely?--Obliquely, yes.
8453. So that the deck lights would not indicate to you the probable length of the steamer showing them?--
Well, no.
8454. They would all be bunched up?--They would be bunched up together.
8455. That being so, how did those deck lights communicate to you that this was a large passenger
steamer?--Well, as I said before, by the number of her lights; there was such a glare from them.
8456. You mean from the brilliance from the lights?--Yes, from the brilliance of the lights.
8457. But I suppose a small passenger steamer might have brilliant light?--She would have brilliant light, but
they would not show the light I saw from this steamer.
The Commissioner: Has any small passenger steamer been heard of in this locality at this time?
8458. (Mr. Robertson Dunlop.) You have told us that you did see on the following morning a steamer whose
name you do not know?--A small steamer, yes.
8459. Was she a passenger steamer?--That I could not say.
8460. Have you tried to find out her name?--No, I have not; I took no further interest in her.
8461. (The Commissioner.) What size boat was she?--I never saw her broadside; I only saw her end-on.
8462. You told me it was a very small boat?--It was a small boat. I judged that from her end-on view.
8463. Was it much smaller than the boat the lights of which you had seen the night before?--I should judge
so.
8464. (Mr. Robertson Dunlop.) Was she a vessel about your own size?--No, in my opinion she was
considerably smaller.
8465. Before the vessel which you saw stopped, on what course did she seem to you to be steering?--Do
you mean the steamer I had seen at 11.40?
8466. Yes, before she stopped at 11.40 you had had her under observation for some time, noticing her
movements?--Yes, but I took no notice of the course she was making except that she was coming up
obliquely to us.
8467. Was she making to the westward or to the eastward?--She would be bound to be going westward.
8468. Was she?--She was bound to.
8469. Did you see her going westward?--Well, I saw her red light.
8470. If she was going to the westward and was to the southward of you, you ought to have seen her green
light?--Not necessarily.
8471. Just follow me for a moment. She is coming up on your starboard quarter, you told us?--On our
starboard quarter.
8472. Heading to the westward?--I did not say she was heading to the westward.
8473. Proceeding to the westward?--Yes.
8474. And she is to the southward of you?--She is to the southward of us.
8475. Then the side nearest to you must have been her starboard side, must it not?--Not necessarily. If she
is going anything from N. to W. you would see her port light. At the time I left the bridge we were heading
E.N.E. by compass.
8476. Never mind about your heading. I am only dealing with her bearings. She is bearing S.S.E. of you--
south easterly?--About south.
8477. She is south of you and apparently proceeding to the westward?--Yes, some course to the westward.
8478. Does it follow from that that the side that she was showing to you at that time must have been her
starboard side?--No it does not follow at all. If she is steering a direct west course, yes.
8479. Did you see her green light at all?--Never.
8480. When the captain came up at 11.30 and you reported her to the captain, what was she then
showing?--The captain did not come up at 11.30.
8481. When did he come up?--About 11.45 on to the bridge.
8482. You reported to the captain at 11.30?--About 11.30.
8483. And then the captain at some time looked at her and said, "That does not look like a passenger
steamer"?--That was about 11.45 on the bridge.
8484. What lights was she then showing?--Two masthead lights and a side light, and a few minor lights.
8485. Some deck lights?--A few deck light, yes; that is what I could see.
8486. Is that before or after you say the deck lights had gone out?--That was after the deck lights went out.
8487. What were those deck lights that you saw when the captain came on the bridge?--I do not think that
then I could see more than 3 or 4.
8488. Had those lights gone out or had they come into view again after going?--I do not quite follow.
8489. You have told us the deck lights had gone out?--Yes: when I say that the deck lights had gone out I
mean they had disappeared from my view.
8490. They disappeared from your view, and then apparently some of them again came into view?--Yes.
8491. Was that indicating that the vessel was swinging?--Well, it might do.
8492. Turning her head in the ice as you were?--It might do.
9493. When you turned into your berth that night about 12.30 did you think there was any vessel in
distress?--No.
8494. (The Commissioner.) You had seen no rockets?--I had seen no rockets, my Lord.
8495. And nothing in the appearance of the lights which you say, and the going out of those lights which you
have described, led you to think that vessel was in any way in distress?--Nothing whatsoever.
9496. But was, like yourselves, stopped in the ice?--That is so.
8497. And it was not until the next morning that you heard anything had happened?--Not until next morning.
8498. When did you go on watch?--At 8 o'clock.
8499. The captain states that he was on the bridge at 11 o'clock and was there till 11.30?--I say he was not.
8500. You say he was not?--Most emphatically.
8501. Most emphatically?--Most emphatically.
8502. There must be a mistake somewhere?--Well, it naturally follows, does it not?

Examined by the Solicitor General.

8503. You were the officer of the watch, as I understand, from 8 p.m. till midnight. Would you then be
keeping the scrap log?--I was keeping the scrap log.
8504. Your ship was under way from about 8 o'clock until about 20 past 10 of that watch, was she not?--Yes.
8505. And then about 20 past 10 she stopped, and she was stopped for the rest of the watch?--Yes.
8506. Who would make a dead reckoning and find out where she was at 10.20?--Well, the captain; he would
work it. I never work it.
8507. Is the scrap log here?--No, it is not kept.
8508. (The Commissioner.) Is it destroyed from time to time?--It is destroyed from time to time. There is
one log always kept, of course, but the scrap log is destroyed from time to time.
8509. (The Solicitor General.) I want to know a little about this. Before the scrap log is destroyed in what sort
of book is it kept?--It is copied from the scrap log into the printed log.
8510. Into this fair copy--this book which I have here?--Yes.
8511. Is the scrap log kept in a book?--Yes.
8512. It is not kept on loose sheets of paper?--No, in a book.
The Commissioner: Just follow that up.
8513. (The Solicitor General.) I am going to, my Lord, if I may. (To the Witness.) And this book in which you
kept the scrap log, for how many days, or weeks, or months is the book good for?--It varies.
8514. Is it as big a book as *this*--as your official log?--Oh, no; it is a thinner book.
8515. How much thinner? How many weeks will it take?--It is my duty to rule that book up myself. It all
depends. If we want a piece of paper on the bridge we occasionally tear a piece out of it; and whenever we
take occasional observations we work them on the back.
8516. I want you to give me an idea how big a book is the book in which the scrap log is kept?--I do not
think it would take more than 25 days.
8517. (The Commissioner.) How long had you been out?--We left London on the 5th April in the early
morning--Good Friday.
8518. Did you leave with a new scrap log book?--We always have several of them on the ship; it is in a
cargo book we have.
8519. There is only one in use?--Yes.
8520. How long had this log book been in use?--I think we must have started it when we left London.
8521. (The Solicitor General.) That would be April 5th?--Yes.
8522. And you reached Boston, when?--On April 19th, I think it was.
8523. And you just made the return journey from Boston here?--No, Boston to Liverpool.
8524. That is what I mean. You think you started your scrap log on April 5th, and you went across the
Atlantic to Boston; that did not use up your scrap log book, did it?--No, certainly not.
8525. Then did you use the same scrap log book for the return voyage from Boston to Liverpool?--As far as
my recollection carries me we started it again when we left Boston, but I have a recollection of ruling up
another one after leaving Boston.
8526. On the voyage back from America to Europe?--Yes.
8527. You have a recollection of that. But you see, if this scrap log was newly started when you left on April
5th, it would not be used up in the course of your return voyage from America to England?--Not solely for
that voyage, but I have told you we used a back page for occasional observations, or if we wanted a piece
of paper to write any note on or anything like that.
8528. Who told you to rule out a new scrap log book on the voyage back from Boston to Liverpool?--I did it
myself; nobody told me to.
8529. (The Commissioner.) What does "rule out" mean?--Well, rule the pages in the forms required. First of
all, we put "Hours"--
The Commissioner: Yes, I see what you mean.
8530. (The Solicitor General.) Do you suggest that the old scrap log had at that time been filled to the last
page?--When I started this new book we had evidently finished the old one, otherwise I should not have
started it.
8531. Where is the old one?--The old one? The one for the voyage out?
8532. Yes, the one that you were partly using for the return voyage?--I expect it was thrown away.
8533. Where was it thrown away to?--I expect it went over the side.
8534. Did you throw it over the side?--I did not.
8535. (The Commissioner.) Who did?--I do not know; it was only my suggestion that it was thrown over.
8536. (The Solicitor General.) You did not see it thrown over?--No.
8537. The captain might be able to tell us. You would know this book was the book which contained the real
record for the 14th April?--Of course I knew that.
8538. And by that time, of course, you, and others on your ship, knew quite well there was a very serious
enquiry being made as to the position of your ship and what she was doing on the 14th April?--Certainly.
8539. And by that time you knew that there was some discussion as to whether the ship which you had seen
was the "Titanic" or some other ship?--That was a discussion amongst ourselves.
8540. And you knew there was a discussion in America and the newspapers?--I did not know that our ship
had been mentioned in the papers until we got to Boston.
8541. This was after you left Boston, you see?--Yes, certainly, I knew then.
8542. You cannot tell us whether it was destroyed or not?--No, I cannot say definitely, certainly not.
8543. (The Commissioner.) Had you a log slate?--No, my Lord.
8544. You had nothing but this book?--Only the book. Log slates are out of date now, my Lord.
8545. When did you write up the log book--I do not mean the scrap log book, but the log book. When did
you write it up?--I do not write it up at all.
8546. When was it written up on board your steamer?--That I cannot say. The chief officer writes that up.
8547. (The Solicitor General.) The chief officer?--Yes.
8548. (The Commissioner.) Would he write it up every day or once every two days?--I fancy he writes it up
every day.
8549. (The Solicitor General.) That would be Mr. Stewart?--Yes.
8550. I do not know whether your recollection will enable you to tell me, but I had better ask you. As you
were making entries in the scrap log book from 8 to 12 that night, do you know whether you made any entry
as to any ship that you saw?--No, no entry whatsoever relating to any ship.
8551. You had gone off watch before there was any question of rockets?--Yes.
8552. You must have seen the scrap log book the next day when you came on duty; do you know whether it
contains ant entry of rockets being seen?--I saw none myself.
8553. (The Commissioner.) Did you look to see if there was any reference as to rockets?--No my Lord, I did
not.
The Commissioner: Then you must be careful how you answer.
8554. (The Solicitor General.) You had come on duty, in one of the watches; would you come up at 4 o'clock
in the morning?--No, about 6.50. That is on the Monday morning.
8555. That is what I mean. Then when would you come on duty and be the officer on the watch and have to
keep the scrap log?--It is my duty between 8 and 12 under ordinary conditions.
8556. By that time you had the news about the "Titanic"?--Yes.
8557. Knowing that, did not you look back in the scrap log and see what entries had been made by your
colleague between midnight and 4 a.m.?--No, I did not.
8558. It would be on the very next page, would it not? You turn over the page I suppose when you get to
midnight?--Yes, we finish a page when we get to midnight.
8559. You would have only to turn back one page and see the record made by the officer of the watch from
midnight to 4 a.m. as to what he had seen?--Yes.
8560. And you did not do it?--No, I did not do it.
The Solicitor General: We had better get the chief officer I suppose.
8561. (The Commissioner.) Yes. If you had been on the bridge instead of from 8 to half-past 12, from 12 to
4, and had been keeping the scrap log book and had seen a succession of white rockets with stars going up
from this vessel which you speak of or from the direction of this vessel, would you in the ordinary course of
things have made a record of the fact in your scrap log?--Most decidedly, that is what the log book is for.
8562. So I should have thought. Then it would have been the business of the man who had charge of this
book to record these facts?--I think so, my Lord.
8563. Who was he?--Mr. Stone was on watch.
8564. And, therefore, if Mr. Stone did what you think was his duty, this scrap log book which was thrown
away, or which, at all events, cannot be found, would contain a record of these rockets having been seen?--
Yes, my Lord, but it is not my duty to criticise a senior officer, though.
The Commissioner: I am asking what is the ordinary practice. Do you want any of the other officers back,
Mr. Solicitor?
The Solicitor General: I have Mr. Stewart here, who is the chief officer, and the captain is here also.
The Commissioner: You must exercise your own discretion.
The Solicitor General: I think I will call Mr. Stewart now.

(The Witness withdrew.)