1. Mike, if I've
got this right, DEPARTMENT S came together from the New Romantic and
Mod scenes in London. Were you all involved in the 'legendary' GUNS
FOR HIRE project prior to DEPT S?
MIKE: Well myself,
Tony Lordan, and Vaughn all came from the 1977 punk scene. That was
our connecting link. But by mid-1978, punk was fast becoming a parody
of itself, with all the excitement and optimism being replaced by apathy
and uniformity. Horrid groups like UK Subs and Shambles 69 totally missed
the point as far as I was concerned and just dragged the whole scene
into some kind of 'loser' ghetto. Punk started as music for Heroes.
It ended up becoming uniforms for losers.
So other scenes
popped up around London. I started frequenting a club called Billy's
in Soho, which was hosted at Gossips. It was very outrageous and the
music was Bowie, Lou Reed, Roxy Music, and loads of European Electro.
Very positive and very optimistic. Unlike a Sham 69 gig. At that stage
the phrase 'New Romantic' hadn't been coined. It was a scene that nobody
knew about and had no label. Tony and Vaughn were more into the Mod
thing. I went to some of the early gigs because I was mates with The
Purple Hearts, who I'd met at a Generation X gig at the Marquee in '77.
I'm still friends
with them to this day and I eventually made an LP with them in 1984.
Anyway,Tony,
Vaughn, and Gary Crowley started the Guns for Hire thing, and when they
got offered the chance to record a single for Korova, they asked me
to step in. I taught Tony to play bass and wrote the music for the single
(My girlfriends boyfriend). John Hasler, who was the original drummer,
then manager of Madness, played the drums. We only played live as Guns
For Hire once, at the Rock Garden. John left as he was getting married
to Shanne out of the Nips. So Stuart Mizon joined. Are Guns for Hire
legendary!?
2. Can you remember
much about the early DEPT S live shows towards the end of 1980? You
toured with TOOTS & THE MAYTALS, I believe?
MIKE: The early
live gigs were a shambles to be honest. We could hardly play and we
had six songs, two of which were covers: 'Editions of You' by Roxy Music
and 'Ejection' by Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters (Bob Calvert
of Hawkwind fame!). But we were very enthusiastic and were willing to
learn. My main memory of the 'Toots Routes' tour was that Toots and
his group were always stoned! It was good experience for us though,
even if we were playing to an audience who found our music totally alien.
3. Was there a moment
even before you recorded "Is Vic There?" when you really felt
the band were gelling together?
MIKE: I think
the defining moment was probably supporting the Jam at the Rainbow,
that's when we knew we either had to take it seriously or not bother
at all. That show lead to a John Peel session which opened more doors
for us, and we started getting quite a big live following.
4. I quite vividly
remember you doing "...Vic" on TOTP. I remember reading that
Vaughn was so nervous he sang the first verse instead of miming. What
do you remember about that first TOTP?
MIKE: Total terror!
As usual, we were pissed. The BBC had a cheap bar and we hit it hard.
But it was a great experience. I remember the floor manager on the set
telling the kids in the audience how to dance to each group. Hilarious.
Apparently we were a group with a 'New Romantic' feel, yeah right! lol.....
5. You got a lot
of press attention on the back of "...Vic." Did the pressure
begin to kick in at that time?
MIKE: Well we
got a fair bit of press when 'Vic' was first released. Paul Du Noyer
interviewed us for the NME and Betty Page did an article in Sounds,
which was great. But when the record became a hit, it all got very serious
and we started to see the nasty side of the music industry. Suddenly
it was all about sales and money. We got a £70k advance from Stiff,
which was a hell of a lot of money back then. Lets put it this way,
Culture Club got £20k, and I'm sure they always had more commercial
potential than Dept S. So from being a group of mates, making music
they liked and just having a good time, it became business."
I found the commercial
side of the industry very difficult to deal with. I just wanted to make
music (um...maaannn), but suddenly I was expected to understand balance
sheets and touring costs. Horrible.
6. It's easy to
see these things with particular significance with hindsight, but would
you say Tony Lordan's departure was the beginning of everything crumbling
for the band?
MIKE: Yeah, definitely.
To be honest, Tony didn't help the situation, silly little things like
'offering out' the MD of CBS at a promotional do! But by the time Tony
left (or was sacked basically) the band of brothers had become the band
of businessmen, or so the record company would have had it.
As soon as a
large amount of money became involved, it stopped being so much fun.
That said, Jimmy Hughes who replaced Tony, was a brilliant bass player
and musically at least, we improved 10 fold. Jimmy had previously been
with Original Mirrors and Cowboys International, also the Banned."
7. "Sub-Stance":
the debut album that should have been. What songs do you feel proud
of listening back the tracks these days, Mike?
MIKE: I'm very
proud of 'Ode To Koln', which is basically a song about a German death
camp during the war. As ever, Vaughn's lyrics were superb and I think
the whole atmosphere of the song evokes images of decadent Germany in
1939.
I also really
like 'Of All The Lost Followers' which I thought was a very strong statement
of intent to open the LP with. 'Clap Now' was one of my favourites and
always went down a storm live. We sampled Humphrey Bogart on that track.
Sounds great. 'Going Left Right' and 'I Want' are also very strong tracks
in my opinion.
8. You worked with
David Tickle (ex-Blondie engineer) on the album. What was he like to
work with?
MIKE: Um...Right.....How
can I put this... David Tickle really didn't understand where we were
coming from. He'd lived in America during the London punk explosion
and really didn't understand why we didn't want massive over production.
I tried to do everything in one take, with as few over dubs as possible.
David was a lover
of the kitchen sink. We'd be sitting eating lunch in the community kitchen
and he and the engineer would be extolling the virtues of 'Dark Side
Of The Moon' and we'd be talking about Kraftwerk and The Sex Pistols.
He really didn't get it. But that said, it could have come out a lot
worse. We just had to battle to keep the overdubs to a minimum.
9. Vaughn's lyrics
never cease to fascinate me. Some of them are (nicely) arrogant (say
"Monte Carlo Or Bust" or "I Want"). Was Vaughn as
flamboyant in real life as his songs always suggested to me?
MIKE: Oh God
yes! Vaughn thought he was a star, just by walking to the chip shop!
And trust me, he could be infuriatingly arrogant. But he was a brilliant
lyricist with wit and vision. Sadly, certain parties convinced him that
he was destined for stardom, which is what he wanted very badly.
I think it hurt
him when it didn't happen for him. And those who encouraged him deserted
him, which is what happens in the music business, I'm afraid. He went
to New York for 18 months, to host a newly opened WAG Club, from the
London version in Wardour Street. I don't think it took off though.
But he would have been so suited to that. He loved London club life.
It's very sad that he died so young."
10. I imagine you
must have been pretty disappointed when "Going Left-Right"
and "I Want" were relative flops?
MIKE: More so
'Going Left-Right'. We worked so hard on that record and it received
a massive amount of air play. But I suppose in hindsight, such an aggressive,
trance and beat driven track wasn't exactly what was making the top
10 in those days. It got to the top 50, which is probably higher than
it had any right to, really. That said, it did very well all across
Europe, so I can't moan too much."
'I Want' was
basically written to be a hit, or so Vaughn and I thought. The record
company said 'Go and write a hit single' so we tried. I was surprised
it did quite so badly here. Again, it did well in Europe and even got
to number 1 in Spain!
11. What was gigging
with The Jam like? How did they treat you and can you recall any particular
special gigs?
MIKE: The Jam
were brilliant to us. Always made sure we got a decent sound check.
And they were beer monsters! I remember we played with them at a secret
gig at Woking YMCA and Weller was so pissed he fell into the drum kit
three times during "Eton Rifles". His old man wasn't a happy
bunny, I can tell ya! Then we played at the Sobell centre in Finsbury
Park with them. Five-thousand people there for that one. I'd taken to
using a Wah Wah by this stage (listen to 'Tell Me About It' on Sub-Stance)
and Mr Weller came up to me on stage during our sound check and asked
me how it worked. A month later they released 'Precious'! Git! lol....
12. Paul Weller
described you as "the best young guitarist of 1981". High
praise indeed. I also love your guitar playing. Did you have any particular
influences in developing the style you have?
MIKE: I remember
I once had an audition with Siouxsie and the Banshees (Siouxsie was
lovely and very friendly) and Severin asked me what guitar players I
liked and I said Mick Ronson and Syd Barrett. That confused them. lol."
The first guitar
based record that pushed my buttons was 'Sabre Dance' by Love Sculpture.
The guitar on that is fantastic, I love it to this day. But I've always
loved guitar players who use the instrument for aural experiments. Pete
Townshend on 'I Can See For Miles' or Syd Barrett on 'Interstellar Overdrive'.
Eddie Phillips of The Creation was very impressive as well.
But if I had
to say anyone had more influence on my playing than any, I'd have to
say Syd Barrett. This probably shows on 'Whatever Happened To The Blues'
more than any other track. Believe it or not, one of my early guitar
favourites was Richie Blackmore (as un-hip as it is to say). But I'd
like to think that my playing didn't really sound like any of these
great people.
13. How were DEPT
S received in Europe? Was that tour instrumental in the band starting
to collapse?
MIKE: We always
did very well in Europe. Especially Holland and Spain. The kids over
there were just interested in having a good time, unlike in the UK or
London in particular, where people just stand back and say 'Come on
then boys, impress me' with a cool aloofness.
I remember two
great shows in Madrid, we sold out two nights at a venue that held 1,200
people. The stage got invaded, it was great! Far from causing the collapse,
it bought some relief from the pressure of the record company in London.
The damage had been done long before we got to play in Europe. We played
at the Pink Pop festival in Rotterdam in front of 25,000 people. That
was memorable I can tell you.
14. It's a typical
story, I suppose, but I find it hard to believe that Stiff would have
had such little faith in you over the album. Did you get on with the
likes of Dave Robinson, Jake Riviera etc?
MIKE: The biggest
single mistake we made was signing to Stiff. They just didn't understand
us at all. Stiff was basically a 'Pub Rock' label. We had seven major
labels after us and we signed to bloody Stiff. Bad move. But we were
convinced by management that it'd be a good idea, and we liked the idea
of being on the label that released the first two Damned LP's. That's
how we thought, we were only 20."
What can I tell
ya? I can't for the life of me work out why Stiff signed us, we were
so totally different to any other group on the label. I mean, Jona Lewie
for Darwin's sake. But they knew what we sounded like, had heard the
demos, had seen us live. But as soon as we signed with them, they wanted
us to change, to become more commercial. I'll never understand why record
companies do that.
15. What did you
do yourself when you left the band?
MIKE: Had a nervous
breakdown! lol...Not quite, but I was very upset with the way it all
turned out. I was just a kid with a dream of playing guitar for a living
and the music business turned out to be vile. It left me pretty badly
bruised and I kind of did a Syd Barrett I suppose and walked away. I
made an LP with the Purple Hearts in 1984 called 'A Popish Frenzy',
which was OK as I was just a guest musician and didn't have to deal
with the band politics. Just turn up, plug in and play. Which was fine
by me.
But after that
I totally lost interest in the music business. I didn't play again for
18 years, until I played a gig with Gary and Simon of the Purple Hearts
at a club in Whitechapel Xmas before last.
16. Did you/do you
keep up with any of the other lads in the band?
MIKE: Yeah, I
saw Mark Taylor and Stuart Mizon only a few weeks ago. And we meet up
with Jimmy Hughes every so often and drink too much red wine. And I
bumped into Tony a while ago at a gig, so everyone is still around,
apart from Vaughn, sadly.
17. Vaughn released
a solo single on Paul Weller's Respond label. I'm surprised he didn't
carry on as a solo artist. Do you think he had a future in music?
MIKE: I think
he did have a future in music, but not with the idiots who were advising
him. He should have stuck with what he was good at instead of trying
to become the latest naff 1980's white soul boy. He just had the wrong
voice for it. I got my hands on a video a while ago, of him performing
'Fickle Public Speaking' on some kid's Saturday morning show. It was
abysmal. Sounded like Lou Reed trying to be Issac Hayes.
18. Finally, Mike,
was there a real Vic? Did he or she exist?
MIKE: (Laughs) Oh
yes, Vic was a mythical creature that lived with Boadecia in 33 AD and
danced naked around Stonehenge.
www.whisperinandhollerin.com
