Surveyor General Proceedings:

Depositions of Ambrosio Garcia, Juan Nepomuceno Caravajal, Henry Carpenter, Andres Nuanez, and Nasario Lopez

Taken May 19 and 20, 1885 in Albuquerque, N.M.

"Testimony taken in Albuquerque, N.M. in the matter of the investigation of Private Land Claim - known as the Cañon de Carnuél Tract file 96 - situated in Bernalillo County New Mexico before Wm H. Patterson representing the Surveyor General's office on Tuesday May 19, 1885 at 10 a.m.

Present H.M. Atkinson and Saml Ellison Atty's representing the claimants

Joseph Bell U.S. Dist Atty appeared on behalf of the U.S.

Noah Ilfeld was sworn as interpreter.

Ambrosio Garcia being first duly sworn, deposes as follows:

Ques by H.M. Atkinson atty - What is your name, age, occupation and place of residence.

A - My name is Ambrosio Garcia. My age is 67 years - occupation farmer - I reside in Albuquerque N.M.

Q - How long have you resided here?

A - Ever since I was born.

Q - Are you acquainted with a tract of land known as the Cañon de Carnuél. If so how long have you know it and where is it situated?

A - Yes. I have known it about 40 or 50 years - it is situated in Bernalillo Co. N.M. It is east of here 8 or 10 miles.

Q - Has this tract of land been occupied. If so by whom, how long.

A - Yes it is occupied by the same parties living there now and have been there 18 or 20 years.

Q - Was this tract of land occupied when you first knew it.

A - Yes. Manuel Armijo and his lessees occupied it when I first knew it.

Q - What year was it that you first knew the tract.

A - I don't know.

Q - Under what title did the occupants of the tract claim the same.

A - I don't know.

Q - Has this tract been occupied continuously since you first knew it.

A - Yes.

Q - About how many persons occupied the tract when you knew it.

A - About 20 to 30 families. Some of them were lessees of Manuel Armijo and some were not.

Q - Do you know under what title Manuel Armijo claimed his tract.

A - I do not know.

Ambrocio Garcia (signature)

Subscribed and sworn to before me this 19th day of May AD 1885

Wascott (signature)

Notary Public

Bernalillo Co.

Adjourned until 2 Pm.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Investigation resumed pursuant to adjournment.

L. H. Armijo was sworn as interpreter.

Juan Nep Caravajal being first duly sworn deposes as follows:

Ques - What is your name, age and place of residence?

A - Juan N. Caravajal is my age - I am 66 years old. I reside in Albuquerque, N.M.

Q - Where were you born?

A - In Albuquerque - I lived in Cañon de Carnué from the time I was 18 years old until I moved here 3 years ago.

Q - Are you acquainted with a tract of land or grant known as the Cañon de Carnué, if so how long have you known it and where is it situated?

A - Yes - I have known it about 40 years - it is situated in Bernalillo Co. Territory of N.M. - it is 5 leagues from Albuquerque towards the east.

Q - By whom has this tract been occupied and under what title is it claimed?

A - It was occupied by Manuel Armijo, who exchanged it for property in Albuquerque to Jose Antoñio Garcia - when I first knew the tract it was occupied by Rafael Martin, Juan Luis Garcia -Jose Pacheco - Patricio Guiterres - It is claimed by a grant. I never saw the grant papers.

Q - Do you know the boundaries of this grant, if so what are they?

A - Yes - It starts at the mouth of the Cañon - goes to the brow of mountain. It goes to the north to a place called El Bordo - It goes south to a high ridge of mountain - the canada de los Alamos is at the foot of this mountain.

Q - How far and in what direction is El Bordo from San Antoñio?

A - It is north and about a league distant.

Q - What is the eastern boundary?

A - It is the brow of the mountain on each side of the Cañon.

Q - Within the limits of these boundaries from the mouth of the Cañon to El Bordo about how many families resided there when you first knew this tract?

A - When I first knew the place the towns were the town of Carnué, Tijera and San Antoñio - here lived in Carnué about 20 families - In Tijera and San Antoñio here were about 100 families - Juan Samora,Miguel Samora, Jose Samora - Juan Gistova - Jose Domin - lived in the towns when I first knew the tract.

Q - Have you any interest in the result of this investigation, if so what interest?

A - Yes I have some property in the grant. It was property left to my wife - by Patricio Guiterres her father - Patricio Guiterres got possession of the land by going and taking possession of it like the rest of them - My wife's grandfather's name was Joaquin Sedillo - I think he was one of the original grantees but I am not certain.

Q - Has this grant been occupied ever since you have know it by settlers?

A - Yes.

Ques by Joseph Bell, U.S. Dist. Atty - How far does this tract extend from the mouth?

A - I do not

Q - Where is San Antoñio?

A - It is about 4 leagues from the mouth of the Cañon.

Q - How much land have you in this tract?

A - I have about 26 varas by 50 or 60 varas.

Q - Do you know how much land there was in this tract?

A - I do not know.

Witness Wm H. Patterson

Juan N. Carvajal X his mark

Subscribed and sworn to before me this 19th day of May A.D. 1885

W.A. Scott (signature)

Notary Public

Bernalillo Co. N.M.

Adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9 a.m. - May 20, 1885.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Pursuant to adjournment the investigation was resumed May 20, 1885.

Present: W.H. Patterson. H.M. Atkinson and Saml Ellison, Attys for Claimants. Joseph Bell, U.S. Dist. Atty.

Henry Carpenter being duly sworn deposes as follows:

Ques by H.M. Atkinson, atty - What is your name, age, and place of residence?

A - My name is Henry Carpenter, age 60 years - I reside in Tijeras, Bernalillo Co. N.M. - occupation farmer.

Q - How long have you lived in Tijeras?

A - Since 1853.

Q - Are you acquainted with a grant of land known as the Cañon de Carnuél -

A - Yes, I have known it ever since I lived there - it is east from Albuquerque about 10 miles in Bernalillo Co., N.M.

Q - Do you know the boundaries?

A - Yes - It commences at the mouth of the Cañon de Carnuél on the west, the east Bdy is San Antonito town. It runs from the top of the mountain on each side of the Cañon.

Q - By whom has this grant been occupied since you first knew it?

A - By some of the grantees and their descendants - I think there are about 165 families on the tract now.

Q - Under whom did these parties living here since you have known it claim title?

A - They claim under the grant -

Q - Have you ever seen or heard read the original title papers?

A - Yes, I have seen and heard them read.

Q - Examine these documents marked A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I,J (witness is here shown the original title documents in this case) and state if you have seen them before and whether they are the original title documents in question - to the grant in question?

A - I have seen them before and they are the title documents to the grant.

Q - Are you acquainted with the general reputation among the old residents in that vicinity - as to the occupation of this tract by the grantees of the grant made in 1819 - from 1819 to 1853?

A - Yes.

Q - What is that reputation?

A - This grant was occupied from 1819 up to the time I had personal knowledge - by the grantees and their descendants. There were about 100 families living there in 1853.

Q - Have you any interest in the result of this investigation?

A - I have some land there by purchase.

Q - Do the families living in the grant own an interest therein?

A - Yes - they claim to own an interest nearly all of them were born and raised there.

Q - Are there any minerals upon the land?

A - There is one copper mine there.

Henry Carpenter (signature)

Subscribed and sworn to before me at Albuquerque N.M. this 20th day of May 1885.

W. A. Scott (signature)

Notary Public Bernalillo County

New Mexico

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Andres Nuanez being duly sworn deposes as follows:

Ques by H. M. Atkinson atty - What is you name, age and place of residence?

A - My name is Andres Nuanez. My age is 85 years. I reside in Canderlaria in Bernalillo Co. Ter. of N. M. I have lived there all my life.

Q - Are you acquainted with a grant to Juan Ignacio Tafoya and others to what is known as the Cañon de Carnuél, if so how long have you known it and where is it situated?

A - Yes. I have known it since it has been inhabited there, it is east of here 4 or 5 leagues. The boundaries are on the east - town of Sedillo - which lies east of San Antoñio on the west. The summit of the Sandia mountains The entrance of the Cañon where are some ruins - on the south by the mountains and on the north by the mountains -

Q - When was the possession given for this tract of land under the grant?

A - In 1819 or 1820. At that time I was coming along with a cart load of wood and my oxen's got scared on seeing so many people in the Cañon and upset the cart and the people assisted me in fixing my cart -

Q - Do you know the names of any of the parties who were put in possession?

A - Yes. Juan Nuanez - Juan Cristobal Tovila the last was a nickname his real name was Gurule. I knew many others but I have forgotten their names - Miguel and Jose Samora. I saw these parties there afterwards. I spent 3 winters here about 1825.

Q - Do you know any of the following persons (The atty for claimants reading a list of the original list of grantees from the official translation) as having lived upon this grant?

A - I did know Juan Bautista Duran, Ascencio Moya - Dolores Vaca. Joaquin Sedillo - Juan Luis Garcia - Juan Domingo Gonzales - Jose Julian Chavez Otero - Jose Antoñio Lopez lived there -Juan Cristobal Gurule his [sic] his son's Juan Antoñio Gurule, Juan Cristobal Gurule, Juan Manuel Martinez who was called the bear killer. Jose L. Lopez, Juan Lucero, Jose Griego - Jose Duran. Juan Antoñio Gallego - Juan Rael. Lorenzo Gurule, Manuel Lopez - Geronimo Pacheco. These parties all lived on the grant.

Q - What alcalde was the with these parties when they went to take possession?

A - I think it was Don Mariano de la Peña of Pajarito.

Q - Have these parties and their descendants occupied this grant since that time?

A - Yes, sir.

Q - Have you any interest in this grant?

A - No sir.

Ques by Wm H. Patterson - Have you seen the grant papers?

A - No sir.

Q - Are there any minerals upon this tract?

A - I believe there is some there but don't know the kind.

Q - Is the mesa of San Antoñio within the limits of the grant?

A - Yes.

Q - How far is it from the mouth of the Cañon to San Antoñio?

A - About 3 leagues. San Antoñio is one mile from Tijera, in a northeasterly direction. I do not know the width of the Cañon.

Andres Nuanez X his mark

Witness Wm H. Patterson

Subscribed and sworn to before me at Albuquerque, NM, this 20th day of May A.D. 1885.

W. A. Scott (signature)

Notary Public, Bernalillo County

New Mexico

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Nasario Lopez being duly sworn deposes as follows:

Ques by H.M. Atkinson, atty - What is your name, age and place of residence?

A - My name is Nasario Lopez. My age is 69 years. Occupation farmer. I reside in San Antoñio, Bernalillo Co. Ter. of N.M. I have reside there nearly all my life and time.

Q - Are you acquainted with a grant to Juan Ignacio Tafoya and others known as the Cañon de Carnuél grant?

A - I am. I have known it since I was able to know anything. It is E. of here 12 miles in Bernalillo Co. Ter. of N.M. The boundaries are on the west the opening of the Cañon, on the east the village of Sedillo - on the north the paraje of San Antonito - on the south the brow of the mountain.

Q - By whom has this grant been occupied since you have known it?

A - By the grantees and their descendants.

Q - Were you acquainted with any of the grantees who lived in the grant?

A - Yes. I knew Julian Parraleno - Juan Manuel Martin - Juan Ignacio Tafoya - Juan Nuanez -Juan Cristobal Gurule - Juan Domingo Valencia, Geronimo Pacheco, Juan Guiterrez - his sonJuan Guiterrez - Felipe Martin - Jose D. Apodaca, Salvador Gonzales, Juan Gonzales his brother,Jose Manuel Gonzales. Joaquin Sedillo and others I can mention. These parties and their descendants have always lived on this grant. There are about 150 families upon this grant.

Q - Is the mesa of San Antoñio within the limits of this grant?

A - Yes sir:

Q - Is there any other grant claimed within the boundaries named by you other than the Cañon de Carnuél grant?

A - No sir.

Q - Are these 150 or 160 familes all owners in this grant?

A - Yes sir.

Q - How old were you when you first knew this grant?

A - Since I was 12 or 13 years old.

Q - Have you any interest in this grant?

A - Yes, I own some land.

Ques by Wm H. Patterson - What is the distance from the W to E boundary?

A - I do not know.

Q - How far is it from the mouth of the Cañon to San Antoñio?

A - 5 or 6 miles more or less. San Antoñio is mile from Tijeras - Sedillo is

Q - Are there any minerals upon this tract?

A - Yes sir. There is much. There in lead, coal, copper, gold and silver.

Witness Wm H. Patterson

Nasario Lopez X his mark

Subscribed and sworn to before me this 20th day of May A.D. 1885.

W.A. Scott (signature)

Notary Public, Bernalillo County

New Mexico"




SOURCE: Spanish Archives of New Mexico I, Microfilm reel 27, Surveyor General #150, "Cañon de Carnuel Land Grant" Fr.771 to 785.

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